# Child sex now legal in Australia….. if you are black. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 29, 2003, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/child-sex-now-legal-in-australia-if-you-are-black/191772 "2003-07-29T23:33:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Lentil\_man](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/b5e925/32.png) [@Lentil\_man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lentil_man)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2003, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/child-sex-now-legal-in-australia-if-you-are-black/191772/21 "2003-07-30T05:22:28Z")
Because the man has followed aboriginal culture in the payment for his bride, and waited the traditionally appropriate time period for his bride to be delivered (i.e. her first menstruation) then under aboriginal law he was in the right to ‘have his way’. i dont personally agree with this still being practiced but it is their culture and many cultures throughout the world are acknowledged in such a way. The idea simply is, that if they’ve practised this way for thousands of years, who are we to forcibly change this? It is commonplace in India for brides to be pre-sold in a similar fashion, but because this is the prevalent culture in many places, no noise is made about it. If blake finds this so abhorrent, i’d like to hear his point of veiw on circumcision. isnt this grevious bodily harm, or something of the kind? ---
**Author:** ![Jervoise](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d2c977/32.png) [@Jervoise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jervoise)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2003, 6:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/child-sex-now-legal-in-australia-if-you-are-black/191772/22 "2003-07-30T06:32:02Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Blake \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > You’ve created a thread which wilfully implies that something has happened on the Australian legal scene, like in just the last 48 hours, which has made “Child Rape” perfectly legal, nationwide, if you’re an indiginous Australia > > Nice attempt at a strawman. I never said that, nor did I imply it. \*\*Pardon? Re-read your damn thread title again and claim “nor did I imply it”. Three things: (1) Northern Territory law recognises traditional Aboriginal tribl marriage. In the case in question, the couple were _married_. Let’s not throw the word “rape” about; statutory rape has a legal definition and in this case the term just isn’t applicable since a legal defence is available to the accused. (2) Let us not be unaware of the relationship between traditional Aboriginal culture and contemporary Australian society. Like it or not, marriage arrangements like these take place with the consent and encouragement of the communities in which many Aboriginal people live. It’s easy to look from the outside and exclaim Mrs Lovejoy-like, “won’t someone _please_ think of the children!”, but your morality has no place here. We’re dealing with the vestiges of an ancient culture that has established its own rules, relationships and customs. The Northern Territory has simply chosen to recognise this culture and its traditional lore. Incidentally, claiming that because the man in question lives in a HOUSE and owns a firearm means that he is somehow not living a traditional lifestyle is unadulerated ignorance, bordering on prejudice. (3) _Please_ stop using the word “black”. It’s inappropriate. The people in question are “Aboriginal”; they are “Aborigines”. Use these words, or the specific tribal identifier. ---
**Author:** ![errata](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/839c29/32.png) [@errata](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/errata)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2003, 6:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/child-sex-now-legal-in-australia-if-you-are-black/191772/23 "2003-07-30T06:48:41Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Lentil man \* > Because the man has followed aboriginal culture in the payment for his bride, and waited the traditionally appropriate time period for his bride to be delivered (i.e. her first menstruation) then under aboriginal law he was in the right to ‘have his way’. Let’s be clear about language here. ‘have his way’ could have multiple interpretations. Do you mean to imply that forced sex is allowable in Aboriginal culture or that after a girl’s menses that she is considered capable of consenting to marital sex? ---
**Author:** ![Lentil\_man](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/b5e925/32.png) [@Lentil\_man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lentil_man)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2003, 7:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/child-sex-now-legal-in-australia-if-you-are-black/191772/24 "2003-07-30T07:05:43Z")
I’m not certain that this is the case in NT aboriginal tribes, but in most ancient societies, and even western society until (relatively) recently, a man could not rape his wife, he was ‘entitled’ to her. but as you point out, i worded this badly. I simply aimed to point out that this was effectively their honeymoon. as i said, he would have felt ‘entitled’ and although i dont agree with this, traditionally this may have been accepted. ---
**Author:** ![Rhum\_Runner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@Rhum\_Runner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhum_Runner)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2003, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/child-sex-now-legal-in-australia-if-you-are-black/191772/25 "2003-07-30T14:11:39Z")
> [@](#): > > Like it or not, marriage arrangements like these take place with the consent and encouragement of the communities in which many Aboriginal people live. It’s easy to look from the outside and exclaim Mrs Lovejoy-like, “won’t someone please think of the children!”, but **your morality has no place here.** We’re dealing with the vestiges of an ancient culture that has established its own rules, relationships and customs. The Northern Territory has simply chosen to recognise this culture and its traditional lore. I’m no expert on Australia, and it seems the fact of this case are in some dispute, (though of course the fact that somone is not impartial does not mean they are wrong). However, I am intiqued by the comment in bold above. Do we really think that our morality has no place in tribal society? I don’t think I am prepared to subscribe to quite that much relativism. Can’t we say, this may be the way you used to do things, but your way was wrong and we won’t stand for it any longer? Aren’t there some cultural practices which would be better off in histroy books? I think I can say forcing a 15 year old girl into a marriage with a 50 year old man who has killed one wife allready offends me sufficiently that I would say to hell with your traditional ways. But that is just me. ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2003, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/child-sex-now-legal-in-australia-if-you-are-black/191772/26 "2003-07-30T17:55:50Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Fear Itself \* > \*\*Here in Alaska, it is legal for Eskimos to hunt walrus, whales and seals. Whites are not afforded the same right; do you find that dangerous or offensive? \*\* Darn straight! I should be able to shoot walruses too! ---
**Author:** ![Shalmanese](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/45deac/32.png) [@Shalmanese](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shalmanese)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2003, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/child-sex-now-legal-in-australia-if-you-are-black/191772/27 "2003-07-30T18:48:19Z")
A recent GQ thread pointed out that there is a special provision in most (all?) US alcohol laws which allow churches to serve alcohol to minors. Is this any different? ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2003, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/child-sex-now-legal-in-australia-if-you-are-black/191772/28 "2003-07-30T20:04:04Z")
**Blake** , You seem to missing many of the relevant and rational points that are being presented here. You’ve missed a number of considerations that the judge in this case did not. The most glaringly obvious one though is you denial aboutthe title of your thread. Just a PSA. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2003, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/child-sex-now-legal-in-australia-if-you-are-black/191772/29 "2003-07-30T20:14:26Z")
Should Australian law recognize marriages that were performed under Aboriginal auspices? ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2003, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/child-sex-now-legal-in-australia-if-you-are-black/191772/30 "2003-07-30T21:48:37Z")
I’m not quite sure how things work in Australia, but in the US various jurisdictions have different ages of consent. So therefore, in some states you can legally have consensual sex with a 17 year old, in some 16 years old, in some 15 years old. It depends on how the age of consent is defined. So if you have consensual sex in one place you’ve commited statutory rape, if you go across state lines and commit the same act you are legally clear. It seems that the judge is declaring that under aboriginal jurisdictions the age of consent can be lower than it is in non-aboriginal jurisdictions. Seems reasonable to me. And since the charge against the man was statutory rape, NOT plain old rape, he is free to go. Note that the OP seems concerned that what occured was not just statutory rape, but plain vanilla rape. Maybe so, but the defendent was never charged with rape. If he actually raped the victim instead of having consensual sex with her, then he should be charged with that rather than statutory rape. ---
**Author:** ![Boo\_Boo\_Foo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e274bd/32.png) [@Boo\_Boo\_Foo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boo_Boo_Foo)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2003, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/child-sex-now-legal-in-australia-if-you-are-black/191772/31 "2003-07-30T22:07:55Z")
I’m happy to concede that there are some very distasteful overtones to this matter - escpecially a 50 year old man taking on a 15 year old bride. That’s kinda tacky to be honest. But it has to be said however, that the way the case panned out, and the charges and facts which were broght to bear, and the arrangements which are in place these days to respect and allow for Aboriginal tradtions WITHIN the unmbrella of the Australian judicial system - well the judge ruled appropriately. Do I approve of the man’s actions? That is, buying a bride when she was a baby? No… that’s tacky and unpleasant to me. Do I approve of the judge’s actions? Given the circumstances, yes, entirely. Do I wish that buying brides as babies would cease within Aboriginal culture? Well, let’s just say that in my personal experience, I haven’t heard of it happening too often so I don’t think it would be too great a loss. Do I hope that Aboriginal culture and it’s legal ways are maintained nonetheless? You betchya. Great system. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2003, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/child-sex-now-legal-in-australia-if-you-are-black/191772/32 "2003-07-30T22:12:12Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Lentil man \* > \*\*I’m not certain that this is the case in NT aboriginal tribes, but in most ancient societies, and even western society until (relatively) recently, a man could not rape his wife, he was ‘entitled’ to her. but as you point out, i worded this badly. I simply aimed to point out that this was effectively their honeymoon. as i said, he would have felt ‘entitled’ and although i dont agree with this, traditionally this may have been accepted. \*\* So, that makes it okay? Nope, nope, nope. That’s merely moral relativism. ---
**Author:** ![Nightime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e9c0ed/32.png) [@Nightime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nightime)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2003, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/child-sex-now-legal-in-australia-if-you-are-black/191772/33 "2003-07-30T22:34:16Z")
I think the real issue here is not statutory rape, but forced marriages and forced sex in those marriages. Really, wouldn’t this be just as bad if it was an 18 year old being forced into these things? Personally, I think that as long as the guy is subject to prosecution by the legal system, he should not be allowed to have a forced marriage and forced sex. Even if it is traditional. Too bad. Also, it has been pointed out that traditionally the relatives of the girl would come running if she were being hurt, because they would be able to hear her. But now this guy has a house and a gun, making it hard to know what he is doing and hard to stop him. ---
**Author:** ![Ms2001](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ms2001/32/18463_2.png) [@Ms2001](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ms2001)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2003, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/child-sex-now-legal-in-australia-if-you-are-black/191772/34 "2003-07-30T23:44:13Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by errata \* > **Maybe you should get upset over the U.S. because in Iowa: > " the age of consent in Iowa is indeed 16 years of age for anyone; as low as 14 for anyone who is less than 5 years of age apart; and as low as 12 years of age under marriage."** Indeed… the age of consent is also 15 or 14 in Colorado, Missouri, and South Carolina. I hope the OP has enough outrage to go around! ---
**Author:** ![catsix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@catsix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/catsix)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2003, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/child-sex-now-legal-in-australia-if-you-are-black/191772/35 "2003-07-31T01:39:15Z")
But if the girl didn’t want to be married to the man, and she in fact did want to go home, doesn’t that render any argument about his ‘entitlement’ to his wife moot? Because it certainly doesn’t sound like anything the girl consented to, not the marriage, not the honeymoon, not sex with this man, and not living with him. After all, the OP’s cite indicates that the girl wanted to leave. How do we know that she, regardless of her age, ever consented to be his bride or to have sex with him? And does it matter if she didn’t? ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2003, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/child-sex-now-legal-in-australia-if-you-are-black/191772/36 "2003-07-31T01:56:06Z")
**catsix** , Those are all relevant points worthy of discussion. I can’t help but wonder why they weren’t put before the judge for consideration. IIRC, all that he was asked to rule on was the satutory rape charge. Apparently, the girl and her family wouldn’t cooperate w/ the prosecution of the other charges. ---
**Author:** ![cajela](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9de0a6/32.png) [@cajela](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cajela)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2003, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/child-sex-now-legal-in-australia-if-you-are-black/191772/37 "2003-07-31T02:08:06Z")
You folks really should read the link at the top of the first post. There’s some very sensible discussion there which reiterates much of what people have been posting here. One point: the title badly sensationalises the issue. It’s NOT about child sex; and child sex is NOT legal for some and not others. What it IS, is a badly botched domestic violence case. Only the trivial charge made it to court, and the really important stuff about threats and violence and forcible detention was dropped for various reasons. The trivial charge is the “statutory rape” one - obviously not true, if they are legally married. And a 15 year old is not a child. A “youth” perhaps. But able to consent to sex and to marriage. Clearly she did consent to marriage, then changed her mind on discovering more about the guy. The problem is not that he was 50, but that he was a violent bastard. Fair enough, she has a full right to change her mind here. And her parents’ supported her on it, too, and tried to get her out, and called the police when they were prevented - they weren’t selling her as some sort of slave. Lack of knowledge is one of the perils of an arranged marriage. And many cultures do arranged marriages, not just Aboriginal. The real crimes all had their charges dropped, and that totally sucks, and I hope the appeals continue and the bastard is stopped and the girl gets to have a better life. ---
**Author:** ![Chicago2004](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/13edae/32.png) [@Chicago2004](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chicago2004)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2003, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/child-sex-now-legal-in-australia-if-you-are-black/191772/38 "2003-07-31T03:38:12Z")
> [@](#): > > Clearly she did consent to marriage, then changed her mind on discovering more about the guy. I must have missed the part where it said she consented to the marriage. I did see the part where it said she had been promised to this guy from birth, and that her mother had been receiving cash payments from him in exchange for the “right” to marry her. That doesn’t sound very consistent with the idea that she decided, of her own free will, to marry this guy - I mean, even if she wasn’t told flat out that she was going to marry him, like it or not, it sounds like there was immense pressure on her to do so. Furthermore, she’s FIFTEEN. She is a child. In most countries, 15 year olds are deemed incapable of giving consent, and in a case like this, where you’re talking about her giving consent not only to the marriage of some old sketchy guy, but an old sketchy guy to whom she has been promised since birth, and for whom he has been making installment payments, I am, to say the least, very skeptical of any claim that she “consented” to the marriage. Another thing: I don’t find these concerns about “preserving the aboriginal culture” convincing. Am I in favor of destroying aboriginal cultures? Definitely not. But neither am I in favor of credulously allowing child abusers and rapists to hide behind the claim of “ancient tribal custom.” Why should a law refuse to protect a child from rape simply because she is born into an aboriginal family rather than a westernized family? ---
**Author:** ![Otara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/a88e4f/32.png) [@Otara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otara)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2003, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/child-sex-now-legal-in-australia-if-you-are-black/191772/39 "2003-07-31T05:00:49Z")
People seem to be confusing a magistarates decision with ‘this is general law’. Magistrates soemtimes make bad calls, which is why we have appeals processes and the like. In this case the sentence _is_ being appealed, it is not the case that its been agreed that this was a valid ruling. But the other thing is that the magistrate can only go on what information they’ve actually been given. From the link given: * * * “His Honour was told that the relationship between the man and the young woman was a consensual relationship, and was that of man and wife, but that it of course was unlawful because the young woman was under the age of 16 and therefore a breach of the criminal code had taken place. But that was all His Honour was told. There were other aspects that apparently the relationship involved, including an earlier allegation of some violence. But those matters were not raised with His Honour and they were certainly not pressed by the Director of Public Prosecutions.” “My understanding is that in the young woman’s initial complaint, she spoke of a violent assault before the rape, but she withdrew her co-operation from the prosecution, so that evidence wasn’t before the Magistrate at first instance and then also wasn’t before Justice Gallop.” * * * So it changes from a case of violence being involved and discounted as far as the magistrate was concerned, to one where an Aboriginal was going to be put in jail because our system says 16 is the legal age for marriage, and the child was 15 and ‘legal’ under Aboriginal law. 15 vs 16 is not something that can easily be justified as an absolute thing, and has to be put down to more a case of cultural values - to not at least consider this in regards to sentencing as opposed to guilt would seem a wee bit intolerant. And this isnt something unique to aboriginal communities in any case, its fairly standard policy to consider sentencing severity when the person in question is close to the age of consent and its clear the relationship is likely to continue. Otara ---
**Author:** ![Ms2001](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ms2001/32/18463_2.png) [@Ms2001](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ms2001)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2003, 7:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/child-sex-now-legal-in-australia-if-you-are-black/191772/40 "2003-07-31T07:40:22Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Chicago2004 \* > **Furthermore, she’s FIFTEEN. She is a child. In most countries, 15 year olds are deemed incapable of giving consent** If you really are from Chicago as your name implies, it seems odd that you didn’t consider the laws in neighboring Iowa - especially since they’ve been posted in this thread. Fourteen year olds can consent to sex (with nineteen year olds), and twelve year olds can apparently get married. [This chart](http://www.ageofconsent.com/ageofconsent.htm) shows about 70 countries where the age of consent is 15 or lower - over a third of all countries on the list. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/child-sex-now-legal-in-australia-if-you-are-black/191772.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/child-sex-now-legal-in-australia-if-you-are-black/191772.md?page=3)