# Child Sexual Abuse Material rather than Kiddie Porn **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 23, 2025, 6:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/child-sexual-abuse-material-rather-than-kiddie-porn/1017390 "2025-04-23T06:47:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2025, 6:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/child-sexual-abuse-material-rather-than-kiddie-porn/1017390/1 "2025-04-23T06:47:46Z")
Continuing the discussion from [Should the New Pornographers change their name ASAP?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-new-pornographers-change-their-name-asap/1017181/55): > [@Should the New Pornographers change their name ASAP?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-new-pornographers-change-their-name-asap/1017181/55): > > This thread is about the band, the new pornographers. The discussion on what words to use to describe the actions of the member who was who was caught with sexual images of children has gone on more than long enough. I apologize for my part of that hijack. If you want to keep discussing that, please take it to another thread. I think this discussion did, in fact, need to happen. > [@Should the New Pornographers change their name ASAP?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-new-pornographers-change-their-name-asap/1017181/33): > > Nobody sees the phrase “Kiddie Porn” or “Child Pornography” and is confused about what is being discussed. The issue isn’t people being confused. It’s about the actual words used soft-pedaling the gravity of the crime. I agree with @chela here, and “Child Sexual Abuse Material” is, actually, now the accepted term of art for [the orgs and people who actually deal with this sort of thing](https://rainn.org/news/what-child-sexual-abuse-material-csam) (my emphasis): > While the term child pornography is still widely used by the public, it’s more accurate to call it what it is: evidence of child sexual abuse. **That’s why RAINN and others have stopped using the term child pornography and switched to referring to it as CSAM — child sexual abuse materials**. > > While some of the pornography online depicts adults who have consented to be filmed, that’s never the case when the images depict children. Just as kids can’t legally consent to sex, they can’t consent to having images of their abuse recorded and distributed. Every explicit photo or video of a kid is actually evidence that the child has been a victim of sexual abuse. Bald assertions like > [@Should the New Pornographers change their name ASAP?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-new-pornographers-change-their-name-asap/1017181/50): > > It is one of the latest ways to smugly insist to people that they are Englishing wrong. are wrong - the change in terminology was made for good and valid reasons. The Dope is, of course, going to dinosaur its way over this like it does over any change younger than disco \ but it actually is about respect for the child victims here. ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2025, 8:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/child-sexual-abuse-material-rather-than-kiddie-porn/1017390/2 "2025-04-23T08:10:47Z")
I agree completely and emphatically. I’m sometimes skeptical of language that mutates for no good reason, but this is one hundred percent a valuable and important evolution, for the reasons you describe. If anyone argues the point in this thread, you have my sword. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2025, 10:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/child-sexual-abuse-material-rather-than-kiddie-porn/1017390/3 "2025-04-23T10:59:49Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > It’s about the actual words used soft-pedaling the gravity of the crime. That is an assertion. An opinion. Not a statement of fact. Here’s my counter-assertion: no they don’t. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2025, 11:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/child-sexual-abuse-material-rather-than-kiddie-porn/1017390/4 "2025-04-23T11:12:57Z")
> [@(quoted by) MrDibble](#): > > While the term child pornography is still widely used by the public, it’s more accurate to call it what it is: evidence of child sexual abuse. But what’s _in_accurate about the term “child pornography”? Everybody knows what it is, and everybody knows it’s abusive and criminal and awful. Calling it “evidence of child sexual abuse” is _less_ accurate because it’s more general and vague. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2025, 11:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/child-sexual-abuse-material-rather-than-kiddie-porn/1017390/5 "2025-04-23T11:19:26Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > But what’s _in_accurate about the term “child pornography”? You’re not thinking like a defense attorney. They’ll argue about what constitutes pornography. Sexual abuse covers much more ground. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2025, 11:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/child-sexual-abuse-material-rather-than-kiddie-porn/1017390/6 "2025-04-23T11:34:49Z")
Thanks for creating this thread. I have never before heard that there’s a preference to use the phrase “child sexual abuse material”, and agree that it’s a topic worth discussing. I have to admit that I don’t care for the vagueness of that phrase. If i heard “child sexual abuse material” out of the blue, i would think it was describing physical materials used to abuse children, maybe small restraints or such. But language evolves. I wonder if the connotations of the word “pornography” are different in the US, though. It was mostly illegal until recently. There’s still a widespread belief that the creation of mainstream pornography is abusive towards to actors, especially the women involved. [I know it when I see it - Wikipedia](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_know_it_when_I_see_it#:~:text=The%20phrase%20%22I%20know%20it,fallacious%2C%20due%20to%20individualistic%20arbitrariness). ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2025, 11:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/child-sexual-abuse-material-rather-than-kiddie-porn/1017390/7 "2025-04-23T11:38:16Z")
Pornography is protected under the First Amendment. Child pornography is not protected under the First Amendment. Calling it child pornography allows the ‘waters to be muddied’ with First Amendment questions. Calling it “Child Sexual Abuse Material” (or anything that does not raise the question of First Amendment protection) does not. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2025, 11:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/child-sexual-abuse-material-rather-than-kiddie-porn/1017390/8 "2025-04-23T11:43:04Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > It was mostly illegal until recently. Miller v. California is over 50 years old! > **[Miller v. California](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miller_v._California)** > > Miller v. California, 413 U.S. 15 (1973), was a landmark decision of the U.S. Supreme Court clarifying the legal definition of obscenity as material that lacks "serious literary, artistic, political, or scientific value". The ruling was the origin of the three-part judicial test for determining obscene media content that can be banned by government authorities, which is now known as the Miller test. > In 1971, Marvin Miller, owner of a California mail-order business specializing in pornographic ... ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2025, 11:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/child-sexual-abuse-material-rather-than-kiddie-porn/1017390/9 "2025-04-23T11:44:54Z")
So am i. 😟 I still wonder if the word doesn’t have more unpleasant associations in the US than in other parts of the English speaking world. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2025, 11:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/child-sexual-abuse-material-rather-than-kiddie-porn/1017390/10 "2025-04-23T11:45:14Z")
For inclusiveness I think this thread should include the comment that started the discussion: > [@Should the New Pornographers change their name ASAP?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-new-pornographers-change-their-name-asap/1017181/25): > > And further minimizing the seriousness of sexual abuse on children by carelessly calling it “ kiddie porn” as if it was an acceptable genre of adult pornographic tastes. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2025, 11:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/child-sexual-abuse-material-rather-than-kiddie-porn/1017390/11 "2025-04-23T11:53:30Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > You’re not thinking like a defense attorney. Right; I’m not a lawyer. Are we talking about what the technical legal term should be, or about how members of the general public are “allowed” to refer to it in conversation (which, as I understand it, is how this started here on the SDMB). I don’t have a problem with “CSAM” (or something like that) being the official term in legal contexts, used by people who are familiar with what it legally means. But it seems weird to leap from that to “nobody should ever refer to it as child pornography.” Sort of like how someone can get arrested for DUI, but we can still refer to what they did as “drunk driving.” ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2025, 12:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/child-sexual-abuse-material-rather-than-kiddie-porn/1017390/12 "2025-04-23T12:09:43Z")
> [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > That is an assertion. An opinion. Well, this isn’t FQ… But it’s not just _my_ opinion - it’s the opinion of [RAINN](https://rainn.org/news/what-child-sexual-abuse-material-csam), of the [NSPCC](https://learning.nspcc.org.uk/) - and the UK Government [as of 2015](https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2015/9/section/68). > [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > Here’s my counter-assertion: no they don’t. Well, whose opinion to trust - the various orgs who deal with this kind of thing on a daily basis, or some guy on the internet… that’s a tough one. > [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > But what’s _in_accurate about the term “child pornography”? It _implies_ it’s the same class of thing as regular old professional adult pornography. > [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > Everybody knows what it is Do they, though? I mean, CSAM in _all_ its forms. > [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > Calling it “evidence of child sexual abuse” CSAM is only one subset of evidence of child sexual abuse. And it’s CSAM that is replacing “Child Porn”. And it’s not vague in the slightest. > [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > For inclusiveness I think this thread should include the comment that started the discussion: Because linking back to the thread wasn’t good enough? And I definitely don’t want this thread to be a proxy for people put off by chela’s tone or whatever. It’s about educating some people that actually, the language around Child Sexual Abuse Materials has _already_ changed where it counts the most. > [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > Are we talking about what the technical legal term should be, or about how members of the general public are “allowed” to refer to it in conversation ( Scare quotes and defensive phrasing aside, I’m talking about both. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2025, 12:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/child-sexual-abuse-material-rather-than-kiddie-porn/1017390/13 "2025-04-23T12:14:03Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > It _implies_ it’s the same class of thing as regular old professional adult pornography. Implies it to who? To morons? ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2025, 12:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/child-sexual-abuse-material-rather-than-kiddie-porn/1017390/14 "2025-04-23T12:17:19Z")
With some trepidation, i googled “child sex abuse material” and got a lot of hits from US agencies that try to prevent it. I thought this, from a department of Justice publication, was helpful. > The term “child pornography” is currently used in federal statutes and is defined as any visual depiction of sexually explicit conduct involving a person less than 18 years old. While this phrase still appears in federal law, “child sexual abuse material” is preferred, as it better reflects the abuse that is depicted in the images and videos and the resulting trauma to the child. In fact, in 2016, an international working group, comprising a collection of countries and international organizations working to combat child exploitation, formally recognized “child sexual abuse material” as the preferred term. And now I’m going to stop googling that. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2025, 12:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/child-sexual-abuse-material-rather-than-kiddie-porn/1017390/15 "2025-04-23T12:18:29Z")
Moderating: > [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > > [@MrDibble](#): > > > > It _implies_ it’s the same class of thing as regular old professional adult pornography. > > Implies it to who? To morons? This is not the pit. Please keep the conversation civil. ---
**Author:** ![FlikTheBlue](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fliktheblue/32/10972_2.png) [@FlikTheBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlikTheBlue)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2025, 12:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/child-sexual-abuse-material-rather-than-kiddie-porn/1017390/16 "2025-04-23T12:21:56Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > Calling it “evidence of child sexual abuse” is _less_ accurate because it’s more general and vague. Right. “Evidence of child sexual abuse” sounds like a term that applies to child pornography when it’s being held in official custody for purposes of presenting as evidence at a criminal trial. > [@puzzlegal](#): > > I have to admit that I don’t care for the vagueness of that phrase. If i heard “child sexual abuse material” out of the blue, i would think it was describing physical materials used to abuse children, maybe small restraints or such. But language evolves. The first thing that came to my mind was that thread we had here on the dope recently about training AI to detect child pornography. In other words, it made think that this is the sanitized term that is used when the material is in possession of the authorities and is being used for legal purposes (mainly to present at the trial of someone accused of pedophilia), as opposed to when it is “out in the wild” and being used for the prurient interest of pedophiles. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2025, 12:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/child-sexual-abuse-material-rather-than-kiddie-porn/1017390/17 "2025-04-23T12:24:40Z")
> [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > > [@MrDibble](#): > > > > It _implies_ it’s the same class of thing as regular old professional adult pornography. > > Implies it to who? Yeah, that’s my question. It doesn’t imply that to _me_ (any more than the phrase “drunk driving” implies that that’s the same class of thing as driving). Is there evidence that some people _do_ think that way? ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2025, 12:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/child-sexual-abuse-material-rather-than-kiddie-porn/1017390/18 "2025-04-23T12:26:38Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > agree with @chela here, and “Child Sexual Abuse Material” is, actually, now the accepted term of art for [the orgs and people who actually deal with this sort of thing](https://rainn.org/news/what-child-sexual-abuse-material-csam) (my emphasis): They are free to use whatever phrase they want. I am not part of their organization, so I am not beholden to whatever jargon they choose to use. I accept the euphemism treadmill exists, it’s one of the ways language evolves, but calling it child pornography confuses no one nor does it somehow make it less horrifying. Child sexual abuse material might be preferred in a clinical setting, but most of us don’t live our lives in such a setting. ---
**Author:** ![Fretful\_Porpentine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fretful_porpentine/32/2873_2.png) [@Fretful\_Porpentine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fretful_Porpentine)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2025, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/child-sexual-abuse-material-rather-than-kiddie-porn/1017390/19 "2025-04-23T12:32:59Z")
In general, can we stop pretending that getting everyone to use the New Correct Term for a thing, instead of the commonly used term that everyone already knows\*, will somehow improve the world? At best, it just means that discussions about serious topics get derailed into meaningless arguments over semantics; at worse, it’s elitist, because it shuts people out of the conversation who don’t have the education or the verbal dexterity to learn a New Correct Term every five minutes. - With exceptions for situations where the commonly-used term is an actual slur weaponized against a class of people, but that is obviously not what’s happening here. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2025, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/child-sexual-abuse-material-rather-than-kiddie-porn/1017390/20 "2025-04-23T12:46:31Z")
> [@FlikTheBlue](#): > > The first thing that came to my mind was that thread we had here on the dope recently about training AI to detect child pornography. - Because training AI _hasn’t_ resulted in complete fuckups. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/child-sexual-abuse-material-rather-than-kiddie-porn/1017390.md?page=2)