# Child Sexual Abuse Material rather than Kiddie Porn **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 23, 2025, 6:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/child-sexual-abuse-material-rather-than-kiddie-porn/1017390 "2025-04-23T06:47:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2025, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/child-sexual-abuse-material-rather-than-kiddie-porn/1017390/21 "2025-04-23T13:10:20Z")
> [@Fretful\_Porpentine](#): > > it’s elitist, because it shuts people out of the conversation who don’t have the education or the verbal dexterity to learn a New Correct Term every five minutes. Well, this one seems to have been the preferred term in many circles since 2016, which is nearly a decade. Of course, that means it’s a recent usage to most of this board’s posters. On the one hand, I’m willing to learn a new word for a few things of importance every decade or so. This is hardly the only new-to-me word I’ve come across recently that replaces words i already had with a slightly different twist. (“Banger”, for a particularly good piece of media, is another that comes to mind. I never heard it before this year, and now I’m hearing it everywhere. And yes, it’s an awkward word to bring into this discussion, but it’s the one i was thinking about Monday evening.) On the other hand, expressing shock and dismay that a bunch of old farts are _still using_ a phrase that’s by far the most commonly used one in the US, and whose replacement needs to be defined and explained in official publications, seems counter-productive. I’m sure this is one of those cases where language changes faster in some circles than in others. I also suspect the US is lagging other countries. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2025, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/child-sexual-abuse-material-rather-than-kiddie-porn/1017390/22 "2025-04-23T13:19:02Z")
> [@Fretful\_Porpentine](#): > > getting everyone to use the New Correct Term for a thing The way I see it, it’s not so much a matter of “the New Correct Term” as of a preference for using the professional/legal term-of-art in any public for-the-record discourse or outside of casual conversation. Which is understandable so everyone’s on the same page but as has been mentioned runs the risk that popularization will lead to a “euphemism treadmill” among the lay public as they start using it when they should not. Yes, some people _ **are** _ uncomfortable with hearing and using the phrase “child porn” for multiple reasons, though I do not see there being a concerted effort to render it “inappropriate” and I must confess never encountering a serious argument that calling it that somehow _legitimizes_ or defuses it. But for some people it is, maybe it’s the word “porn” itself that has lost its sting? I do understand also though how someone can point out that “CSAM” has a potential for definitional expansion/creep, that is a real risk. That can be dealt with in the legal side if the legislatures and courts avoid vagueness and make it absolutely unambiguous that it means that which they’ve called “childporn” for the last 50 years ( = sexually explicit content _that would clearly be called porn if portrayed by adults_, but produced with _actual live children_). But OTOH we KNOW that on the _popular_ side we’ll have a problem with people/voters crying out that _anything_ that creeps them out is CSAM and should be treated accordingly. (I am on record previously here that porn toons of Lisa Simpson or Rei Ayanami are _ **not** _ CSAM, they’re copyright infringement; similarly _Cuties_ was not CSAM it was just a mediocre movie.) ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2025, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/child-sexual-abuse-material-rather-than-kiddie-porn/1017390/23 "2025-04-23T13:22:06Z")
By the way, I’ve just asked a few fairly liberal people in my social circles if they are familiar with the phrase, “child sexual abuse materials”, and the answer has been uniformly “no”. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2025, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/child-sexual-abuse-material-rather-than-kiddie-porn/1017390/24 "2025-04-23T13:25:39Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > I do understand also though how someone can point out that “CSAM” has a potential for definitional expansion/creep, that is a real risk. I actually think it has less potential for that. Because anything it might expand into is already a form a child abuse. So it’s not terrible if the exact boundaries drift. Whereas graphic sexual videos of cartoon Lisa Simpson are “child pornography”, as those words ordinarily string together. And whether that should be okay or not, i think it’s clearly less bad than abusing real children to produce that kind of image. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2025, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/child-sexual-abuse-material-rather-than-kiddie-porn/1017390/25 "2025-04-23T13:26:01Z")
I understand and applaud the OP’s point. I also think that CSAM sounds like what it is: the bland & bloodless product of a committee, and an international one to boot. It’s fine professional jargon, stilted colloquial language, and downright lousy slang. Because it was _designed_ to be fine professional jargon. Now that I know the term I’ll understand it when I read it and try to use it on the very rare occasions I talk or write about such subjects. Unrelated to the above … > [@JRDelirious](#): > > But for some people it is, maybe it’s the word “porn” itself that has lost its sting? This is a very good point. Speaking just to Americans since that’s the only group I can pretend to have any understanding of this topic about. The freestanding word “pornography” used to provoke horrified gasps in ordinary Americans. Now it’s what’s on Channel 327. And another 50 channels. And a million websites. And in that password-protected folder on most people’s phones. The short form “porn” has long since lost its sting. IMO to most Americans It’s an endearing nickname for an entertainment genre, nothing more. It’s got a definite “guilty pleasure” overlay, but so does eating a whole row of Oreos. So I can see the logic behind concerned groups pushing away from using that word for what is, always, the result of doing a definitely victimful crime to somebody(s). ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2025, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/child-sexual-abuse-material-rather-than-kiddie-porn/1017390/26 "2025-04-23T13:27:20Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > By the way, I’ve just asked a few fairly liberal people in my social circles if they are familiar with the phrase, “child sexual abuse materials”, and the answer has been uniformly “no”. XKCD strikes again. > **[Average Familiarity](https://xkcd.com/2501/)** (What, most people don’t know an in-industry technical term‽) ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2025, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/child-sexual-abuse-material-rather-than-kiddie-porn/1017390/27 "2025-04-23T13:29:57Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > The short form “porn” has long since lost its sting. IMO to most Americans It’s an endearing nickname for an entertainment genre, nothing more. See also phrases like “food porn” or “car porn” or (in the derogatory side of things) “misery porn”. Good point. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2025, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/child-sexual-abuse-material-rather-than-kiddie-porn/1017390/28 "2025-04-23T13:34:39Z")
I don’t think that’s really to the point. Because most people on this board do know about the topic we are discussing. It’s just a question of the best words to use when describing it. Whereas most people on this board wouldn’t know the formula for any minerals if it was sitting on their dining room table. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2025, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/child-sexual-abuse-material-rather-than-kiddie-porn/1017390/29 "2025-04-23T13:36:43Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > Whereas most people on this board wouldn’t know the formula for any minerals if it was sitting on their dining room table. Ok, fine: NaCl, satisfied? 😜 ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2025, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/child-sexual-abuse-material-rather-than-kiddie-porn/1017390/30 "2025-04-23T13:39:50Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > any more than the phrase “drunk driving” implies that that’s the same class of thing as driving But drunk driving very much is in the class of driving (just like “reckless driving” or “F1 driving” or “bus driving” are all in the class of “driving”.) > [@Odesio](#): > > I accept the euphemism treadmill exists This is not that. It’s intended as quite the opposite - actually naming the horrible thing that’s underlying the euphemism. > [@Odesio](#): > > calling it child pornography confuses no one Again - this is a strawman. I opened this thread already calling out that it was a strawman. No need to keep repeating it here as well. > [@Odesio](#): > > nor does it somehow make it less horrifying It kind of does (especially when it’s the “kiddie porn” variant) > [@Odesio](#): > > most of us don’t live our lives in such a setting For women - 1 in 4 or 5 will be in a situation where such a setting would pertain to them (and that’s ignoring their guardians, family, loved ones in the count). 1 in 13 to 20 for boys. Not “most of us”, but certainly enough to count. > [@puzzlegal](#): > > On the other hand, expressing shock and dismay I did not express any shock or dismay. Resignation and inevitability, though, got that in spades. > [@puzzlegal](#): > > I’ve just asked a few fairly liberal people in my social circles if they are familiar with the phrase, “child sexual abuse materials”, and the answer has been uniformly “no”. I just asked a few of my circle (leftists, _not_ liberals), and they all knew what it was. It’s been a topic of discussion here, [even in the news media](https://iol.co.za/news/south-africa/western-cape/2025-03-04-time-for-sa-to-follow-suit-and-replace-child-pornography-term-with-child-sexual-abuse-material/). > [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > an in-industry technical term Where “the industry” is “the legal framework of entire countries, and a whole lot of organizations that deal with a widespread problem that affects a huge proportion of people”, of course. . ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2025, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/child-sexual-abuse-material-rather-than-kiddie-porn/1017390/31 "2025-04-23T13:43:51Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > I actually think it has less potential for that. Because anything it might expand into is already a form a child abuse. So it’s not terrible if the exact boundaries drift. America has a history of moral panics. And the current criminal regime would certainly foment one if they thought there was advantage in it. As always, it’s the most narrow minded thinkers who embrace these panics. Consider the so-call Pizzagate flail of a few years ago. Lotta true believers really truly believed and still do. It would not surprise me in the slightest for there to be a fomented moral panic over child sexual abuse wherein completely normal parenting behavior was reclassified as abusive then selectively enforced. Now I will agree with you that the term CSAM doesn’t add or subtract from the opportunity for moral panics and malicious law-writing and law enforcement. But I for one would not be blasé here in 2025 & later years about the risk of anything and everything that offends the reactionary offenderati being selectively criminalized for totalitarian-leaning political purposes. Child sexual abuse as a topic is probably the biggest shiniest lowest-hanging fruit on that very poisonous tree. FTR: None of what I’m talking about here is meant to minimize the problem of actual child sexual abuse, whether in-family, neighbors, etc., or for commercial purposes. I’m simply outlining its especial attraction to political bad actors. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2025, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/child-sexual-abuse-material-rather-than-kiddie-porn/1017390/32 "2025-04-23T13:46:23Z")
Here’s the issue as I see it. Joe Seiders sexually abused children. That should be the focus of public attention. We should not be distracting public attention with a discussion of the proper terminology. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2025, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/child-sexual-abuse-material-rather-than-kiddie-porn/1017390/33 "2025-04-23T13:51:03Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > On the other hand, expressing shock and dismay that a bunch of old farts are _still using_ a phrase that’s by far the most commonly used one in the US, and whose replacement needs to be defined and explained in official publications, seems counter-productive. To expand a little on this, i am reminded of the four children of the passover service. [Lessons from "The Four Children" of the Seder](https://reformjudaism.org/lessons-four-children-seder#:~:text=In%20the%20middle%20of%20the,important%20to%20us%20as%20Jews). They are the wise child, the wicked child, the simple child, and the one who doesn’t know to ask. We are instructed to answer them differently. 1. **The** **wise** child asks details about the specific meaning of the laws of Passover observance… to which we respond with one of the very specific details. 2. **The wicked** child asks, “Whatever does this mean to you?” we are instructed to admonish this child. 3. **The simple** child asks, “What does this mean?” we are instructed to give a straightforward answer to this child. 4. In response to **the child who does not know how to ask** , we are instructed to “open it up” and explain. So I appreciate it when those of us unfamiliar with the phrase “child sexual abuse material” , let alone the arguments in favor of preferring it, are not immediately assumed to be wicked. And i suggest that “a straightforward answer” is a good starting approach if you want to promote a new way of discussing a sensitive issue. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2025, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/child-sexual-abuse-material-rather-than-kiddie-porn/1017390/34 "2025-04-23T13:51:16Z")
I’m reminded of the George Carlin bit about “Shell Shock” becoming “Post Traumatic Stress Disorder,” and how we just keep adding syllables to the names of problems but don’t really do anything to address the root of them. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2025, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/child-sexual-abuse-material-rather-than-kiddie-porn/1017390/35 "2025-04-23T13:53:35Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Here’s the issue as I see it. > > Joe Seiders sexually abused children. That should be the focus of public attention. > > We should not be distracting public attention with a discussion of the proper terminology. I completely agree, and that’s why i asked people to stop discussing terminology in the thread where he was being discussed. That doesn’t mean this isn’t also a valid discussion to have. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2025, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/child-sexual-abuse-material-rather-than-kiddie-porn/1017390/36 "2025-04-23T13:53:38Z")
> [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > we just keep adding syllables to the names of problems but don’t really do anything to address the root of them. Suggesting that RAINN and the other orgs who are at the forefront of the terminology change aren’t doing anything to address the root of the issue is quite frankly just insulting. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2025, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/child-sexual-abuse-material-rather-than-kiddie-porn/1017390/37 "2025-04-23T13:54:16Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > I did not express any shock or dismay. Resignation and inevitability, though, got that in spades. You didn’t, and i appreciate that. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2025, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/child-sexual-abuse-material-rather-than-kiddie-porn/1017390/38 "2025-04-23T13:54:44Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > oe Seiders sexually abused children. And there’s a thread for that. This is not that thread. In fact, bringing him up here, where a different discussion is happening, is the distraction. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2025, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/child-sexual-abuse-material-rather-than-kiddie-porn/1017390/39 "2025-04-23T13:54:51Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > This is not that. It’s intended as quite the opposite - actually naming the horrible thing that’s underlying the euphemism. But the term _is not a euphemism_. It is an accurate descriptive term that a special interest group has decided that they don’t like. If it had been called “special hugs videos”, _that_ would be a euphemism. This is like people suddenly deciding that you can’t say “puch”, you must say “forcibly strike with closed fist”, or fscf, and insist that “punch” is a minimizing euphemism when _that is what “punch” has always meant to everybody in the first place_. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2025, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/child-sexual-abuse-material-rather-than-kiddie-porn/1017390/40 "2025-04-23T14:01:08Z")
> [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > But the term _is not a euphemism_. The modern definition of pornography includes the idea of consent. Calling CSAM “child pornography” or image-based abuse “revenge porn” is assuming the mantle of consent-by-association. It very much is euphemistic. > [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > a special interest group You keep calling the people who actually deal with this on the daily “special interest groups” as though they were merely political lobbyists and not the people actually in the trenches working with abused children. Why is that? > [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > This is like people suddenly deciding that you can’t say “puch” [sic] This is nothing like that. Unless the meaning of “punch” has also evolved to render the usage problematic… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/child-sexual-abuse-material-rather-than-kiddie-porn/1017390.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/child-sexual-abuse-material-rather-than-kiddie-porn/1017390.md?page=3)