# Child Sexual Abuse Material rather than Kiddie Porn **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 23, 2025, 6:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/child-sexual-abuse-material-rather-than-kiddie-porn/1017390 "2025-04-23T06:47:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2025, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/child-sexual-abuse-material-rather-than-kiddie-porn/1017390/121 "2025-04-24T14:20:06Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > > [@puzzlegal](#): > > > > So .. give it a few years, and perhaps most of us will be happy to use a term that has become understood. > > Wouldn’t you _rather_ be an early adopter? It’s what many victims would want, after all. Yes. And thanks to this thread, i will be. But I’m not going to be the first adopter who has to derail a conversation to explain what I’m talking about. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2025, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/child-sexual-abuse-material-rather-than-kiddie-porn/1017390/122 "2025-04-24T14:26:59Z")
I sincerely hope nobody who is not from Mars needs “sexual abuse material/images” explained to them. I think it is pretty clear what that means. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2025, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/child-sexual-abuse-material-rather-than-kiddie-porn/1017390/123 "2025-04-24T14:57:41Z")
> [@Jophiel](#): > > to abandoning that line for a straight-on Appeal to Emotion. That’s precisely what is happening. Going back to my earier analogy, just because someone is punched doesn’t mean that they now have the right to assert to everyone that the _real_ and _proper_ thing to say is “forcibly struck with closed fist” and that anyone who doesn’t adopt their new term immediately _ **Just Doesn’t Get It** _, is clueless, is obstinate, and is possibly morally deficient. Ironically, that very argument is for language proscriptiveness, while the argument is being made that everyone else is being proscriptive. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2025, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/child-sexual-abuse-material-rather-than-kiddie-porn/1017390/124 "2025-04-24T15:01:29Z")
> [@Jophiel](#): > > > [@BigT](#): > > > > The idea is that those who acquire child porn are in fact contributing to the abuse > > But they are not abusers at that moment. I eat eggs and thus incentivize raising chickens but this doesn’t make me a farmer. They are. That’s the legal concept. If you disagree, then you need to be advocating to get child porn laws overturned. It’s not illegal because people find them liking child porn to be gross. It’s illegal because they are actively causing harm. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2025, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/child-sexual-abuse-material-rather-than-kiddie-porn/1017390/125 "2025-04-24T15:02:48Z")
> [@DPRK](#): > > I sincerely hope nobody who is not from Mars needs “sexual abuse material/images” explained to them. I think it is pretty clear what that means. I sincerely hope nobody who is not from Mars needs “child pornography is bad” explained to them. I think it is pretty clear what that means. That’s part of this whole conversation: that the term makes child porn sound like it is maybe a good thing, and that there are people out there who, when told “no, it is acktalllly _csam_” will have a sudden epiphany, “wait, child porn is _bad_? Well this changes everything!”. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2025, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/child-sexual-abuse-material-rather-than-kiddie-porn/1017390/126 "2025-04-24T15:04:49Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > They are. That’s the legal concept. If you disagree, then you need to be advocating to get child porn laws overturned. That’s just silly. I’m not disagreeing that they do harm, I’m disagreeing that they are abusing the children. If the “legal concept” was that they were the same thing, we wouldn’t need laws against child pornography since you’d just book everyone on sexual assault. Again, eating eggs doesn’t make me a farmer even if we find the idea of eating eggs to be morally vile and harmful. Or, for a more legal version, being arrested for possession of meth doesn’t mean I’m tried for production of meth despite the fact that my meth use incentivizes production. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2025, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/child-sexual-abuse-material-rather-than-kiddie-porn/1017390/127 "2025-04-24T15:09:47Z")
> [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > the term makes child porn sound like it is maybe a good thing, It really doesn’t. (I hope goes without saying). Saying “sexual abuse” simply spells it out explicitly, rather than allowing some hypothetical wrong 'un to use their imagination. “Cemetery” is also a euphemism, in the same vein, but to misunderstand it one would have to be more than a little obtuse. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2025, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/child-sexual-abuse-material-rather-than-kiddie-porn/1017390/128 "2025-04-24T15:11:21Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > Honestly it just seems daft for anyone to argue with the professionals here; this isn’t a case of some loony fringe insisting on flowery terminology out of some misplaced sense of political correctness, these are experts defining a term for reasons they have undoubtedly thought through better than any of us. It makes no sense for laypeople to be asserting that the thing they’re more familiar with, is somehow better. Sure it does. It makes sense that official organizations want to use more official terminology, and it makes sense that other people want to use more colloquial terms. In Real Life, the term PDF file is used to mean child sexual molester. Because that’s how language works. My main objection to CSAM currently in general use because not enough people know what it means, and thus it’s just letters that obscure the main value of it: that it mention child sexual abuse. Over time, maybe that changes, and I can count on people to know what the fuck I mean. And that, @MrDibble, is why I’m not getting on the train now. I have no reason to think anyone would know what see-sam means. Hell, I’m pretty sure most wouldnt’ connect “child sexual abuse material” with “child porn” unless I use both terms. It’s just that unknown among anyone I interact with. I see it as a thing globally, in certain newspapers, which people don’t read anymore. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2025, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/child-sexual-abuse-material-rather-than-kiddie-porn/1017390/129 "2025-04-24T15:13:09Z")
It’s not silly. It’s the concept. If they aren’t abuse, they aren’t causing harm. The abuse is the harm. You can keep on bringing up stuff that isn’t illegal and isn’t treated the same way, but it is irrelevant. Child sexual abuse is not farming. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2025, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/child-sexual-abuse-material-rather-than-kiddie-porn/1017390/130 "2025-04-24T15:14:22Z")
> [@DPRK](#): > > “Cemetery” is also a euphemism ?? No it isn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2025, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/child-sexual-abuse-material-rather-than-kiddie-porn/1017390/131 "2025-04-24T15:14:39Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > If they aren’t abuse, they aren’t causing harm. The abuse is the harm. No the incentivizing of the abuse is the harm. > [@BigT](#): > > You can keep on bringing up stuff that isn’t illegal and isn’t treated the same way, but it is irrelevant As I mentioned, being arrested for a drug isn’t treated as producing the drug despite my purchase of the drug incentivizing production. Owning an endangered species pelt is a crime but the crime isn’t poaching of an endangered species. Etc and so on. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2025, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/child-sexual-abuse-material-rather-than-kiddie-porn/1017390/132 "2025-04-24T15:32:54Z")
> [@Jophiel](#): > > abandoning that line Who abandoned it? Certainly not me. > [@Jophiel](#): > > no one else had an issue with. Other than actual CSAM victims… > [@puzzlegal](#): > > But I’m not going to be the first adopter who has to derail a conversation to explain what I’m talking about. S’fine, I’m certainly not going to be hijacking threads about it either. This thread wasn’t about berating anyone for using the term in the other thread. It _was_ about countering the “just language prescriptivists doing euphemism creep” arguments raised in that thread, though. Also to counter the “they think ‘child porn’ is unclear language” absolute strawman that I see is _still_ being trotted out here. > [@BigT](#): > > My main objection to CSAM currently in general use because not enough people know what it means What part of “Child Sexual Abuse Material” is unclear? Or do you mean the literal acronym? In which case, I’m not so sure “not enough” is accurate. [Trends are certainly clear on this.](https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=CSAM%2C+Child+Sexual+Abuse+Material%2C+Child+Porn&year_start=1990&year_end=2022&corpus=en&smoothing=3&case_insensitive=true) > [@BigT](#): > > I have no reason to think anyone would know what see-sam means. Tell that to e.g. [CNN](https://edition.cnn.com/2022/12/08/tech/apple-csam-tool/index.html), who use it freely (after using the full term on first use, as is proper). I can see people here not using it themselves. Like I said, this was expected, predictable Doper behaviour. But trying to argue for counterfactuals like _nobody_ using it are easily exposed. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2025, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/child-sexual-abuse-material-rather-than-kiddie-porn/1017390/133 "2025-04-24T15:35:35Z")
Yes, it is (in origin). Unless all those buried people really are just [sleeping](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%BA%CE%BF%CE%B9%CE%BC%CE%B7%CF%84%CE%AE%CF%81%CE%B9%CE%BF%CE%BD#Ancient_Greek). ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2025, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/child-sexual-abuse-material-rather-than-kiddie-porn/1017390/134 "2025-04-24T18:59:02Z")
> [@Jophiel](#): > > We’ve gone from a pretty weak semantic assertion that “pornography implies consent” to abandoning that line for a straight-on Appeal to Emotion. I don’t think asserting that victims of sexual abuse would like people to switch terms is an appeal to emotion. They are the people with the most direct interest in the question, and we should defer to them (I guess “I don’t want to be a jerk to crime victims” is kind of an emotional response, but I’m OK with that). I’m not seeing clear evidence that a majority of victims actually do hold that opinion, or feel strongly about the matter, but if such evidence were presented, I would certainly feel compelled to switch terms based on that. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2025, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/child-sexual-abuse-material-rather-than-kiddie-porn/1017390/135 "2025-04-24T19:25:27Z")
I don’t think any survey on the matter has been done. I do know that specific victims have come out very strongly in favour of the new terminology, and I know of no victims who are strongly opposed to it or in favour of the old verbiage. Of course, if the side in favour of continuing to call it child porn _can_ line up a few survivors who are adamantly on their side, they should definitely do that. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2025, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/child-sexual-abuse-material-rather-than-kiddie-porn/1017390/136 "2025-04-24T19:48:43Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Of course, if the side in favour of continuing to call it child porn _can_ line up a few survivors who are adamantly on their side, they should definitely do that. I assume most people don’t care what you personally call it and therefore aren’t interested in making “adamant” statements either way. For example, I’m sure someone exists who is a victim and has said that “child pornography” is their preferred term (it’s a big world and if you can find transgender Trump supporters…) but I honestly don’t care enough to look because I’m not trying to change your mind. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2025, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/child-sexual-abuse-material-rather-than-kiddie-porn/1017390/137 "2025-04-24T19:58:48Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Yes, it is (in origin). Unless all those buried people really are just [sleeping](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%BA%CE%BF%CE%B9%CE%BC%CE%B7%CF%84%CE%AE%CF%81%CE%B9%CE%BF%CE%BD#Ancient_Greek). Even in plain English, one might say someone was “laid to rest”. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2025, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/child-sexual-abuse-material-rather-than-kiddie-porn/1017390/138 "2025-04-24T20:09:20Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > > [@BigT](#): > > > > My main objection to CSAM currently in general use because not enough people know what it means > > What part of “Child Sexual Abuse Material” is unclear? Or do you mean the literal acronym? In which case, I’m not so sure “not enough” is accurate. [Trends are certainly clear on this.](https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=CSAM%2C+Child+Sexual+Abuse+Material%2C+Child+Porn&year_start=1990&year_end=2022&corpus=en&smoothing=3&case_insensitive=true) If you add “child pornography” to that serach, it gets nearly 10 times as many hits as CSAM. But yes, CSAM is defintely gaining in popularity. > [@Thing.Fish](#): > > I’m not seeing clear evidence that a majority of victims actually do hold that opinion, or feel strongly about the matter, but if such evidence were presented, I would certainly feel compelled to switch terms based on that. Sure. That’s a basic “don’t be a jerk to crime victims” move. And I won’t be surprised if that happens in a few years. And I understand the point of trying to use more constructive words. I’ve been doing some volunteer tutoring in a prison, and the group I’m working with asks that we speak about “incarcerated people” rather than “felons”. I mostly just refer to them as my students, though, as that’s generally the most immediately relevant noun. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2025, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/child-sexual-abuse-material-rather-than-kiddie-porn/1017390/139 "2025-04-24T20:13:37Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > the group I’m working with asks that we speak about “incarcerated people” rather than “felons” _People of Incarceration_ please. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2025, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/child-sexual-abuse-material-rather-than-kiddie-porn/1017390/140 "2025-04-24T20:26:05Z")
> [@Thing.Fish](#): > > I guess “I don’t want to be a jerk to crime victims” is kind of an emotional response, but I’m OK with that If I was talking to or around Ms. Kozak then I’d use her preferred term out of respect to her. That’s unlikely to ever happen. If I’m expected to change during other conversation, I’d expect an actual good argument for why it matters. Sort of like I might not swear around my mom but that doesn’t mean I’ve removed swearing from my vocabulary entirely. But me using profanity while talking to my friends doesn’t mean I’m disrespecting or don’t care about my mother; it just literally makes no impact to her if I’m doing it. There’s language changes I make because I agree with the argument: I no longer use the word “retard” because I agree with the argument that it denigrates and belittles a class of people. On the other hand, I agree with people who think that “unhoused” is a pointless change of phrase from “homeless”. “CSAM” falls more on that end of the spectrum. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/child-sexual-abuse-material-rather-than-kiddie-porn/1017390.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/child-sexual-abuse-material-rather-than-kiddie-porn/1017390.md?page=8)