# Child support amounts are out of control **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 8, 2010, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/child-support-amounts-are-out-of-control/553077 "2010-09-08T17:43:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Green\_Cymbeline](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/green_cymbeline/32/9244_2.png) [@Green\_Cymbeline](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Green_Cymbeline)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2010, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/child-support-amounts-are-out-of-control/553077/41 "2010-09-09T03:05:07Z")
Here are some good resources on father’s rights: [http://ancpr.com/](http://ancpr.com/) Alliance for Non-Custodial Parents Rights [http://www.acfc.org](http://www.acfc.org) American Coalition for Fathers and Children [http://www.fatherhoodcoalition.org/](http://www.fatherhoodcoalition.org/) The Fatherhood Coalition [http://www.dadsdivorce.com/](http://www.dadsdivorce.com/) [DadsDivorce.com](http://DadsDivorce.com) [http://www.fathersandfamilies.org/](http://www.fathersandfamilies.org/) Fathers and Families [http://www.fathersrights.org/](http://www.fathersrights.org/) Fathers Rights Foundation/Fathers And Dads For Equal Custody Rights [http://www.fathersrightsinc.com/](http://www.fathersrightsinc.com/) Father’s Rights [Fathers' rights movement - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fathers%27_rights_movement) Wikipedia - Father’s rights movement [Forum.FreeAdvice.com](http://forum.freeadvice.com/family-law-57/) Family Law Forums [http://GlennSacks.com](http://GlennSacks.com) Glenn Sacks - a men’s and fathers’ issues columnist, radio commentator, and blogger [http://www.fathers4kids.com/html/Home.htm](http://www.fathers4kids.com/html/Home.htm) National Fathers Resource Center [http://deltabravo.net/forum/](http://deltabravo.net/forum/) SPARC, the Separated Parenting Access & Resource Center Forum [http://www.winningcustody.com/](http://www.winningcustody.com/) Winning Custody - A Father’s Guide on How to Win ---
**Author:** ![sisu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@sisu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sisu)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2010, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/child-support-amounts-are-out-of-control/553077/42 "2010-09-09T03:32:45Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > Think its bad now? > Wait till she gets a “live in” boyfriend. He will (no doubt) contibute to her upkeep-but this income makes no difference in what YOU have to pay. > You will soon be supporting 4 people, not three!:mad: WTF, I married a woman with two kids and I can tell you I pay a fucking lot more than the biological father will ever pay. The biological father should always pay his fair share support. Now fair is a difficult concept for those who are angry at their ex’s. ---
**Author:** ![bookbabe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@bookbabe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bookbabe)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2010, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/child-support-amounts-are-out-of-control/553077/43 "2010-09-09T03:47:21Z")
I think that this is less a case of Child Support Run Amuck! and more a case of Childcare Is Godawful Expensive in Montgomery County Maryland! From strictly running the numbers it costs more than $3000 a month for the total childcare cost. The State of Maryland has determined that it costs about $800 something a month per child for basic living expenses. So for two children it would be $1600 a month. This would make the total cost $4600 a month and when you divide it in half between two parents, you get $2300.00, just like your attorney advised you. That’s just an estimate, mind you, I know that the are healthcare insurance costs in there as well and may be other costs as well. On the plus side, once your children are in regular school, your child support should drop significantly. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2010, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/child-support-amounts-are-out-of-control/553077/44 "2010-09-09T04:21:39Z")
> [@Edward\_The\_Head](#): > > Again I’m not complaining about paying support, I’ve already set up my paycheck to do it, what I’m worried about is that the percentage is just way too high. I think they need to review everything, cost of living in your area, salary and things like that, not just plug it into a formula and say it works for them it’ll work for you. Up where I am (Kanukistan), we have a formula. When support payors freak, I sit down with them and go through the actual expenses of child rearing for their family’s particular circumstances. Most often, it comes out that the table figures are the same or less than the actual figures, which helps the support payors swallow a very bitter pill. I don’t have and stats handy, but I have come across stats that indicate that although the standard of living of both parties decreases after separation, the standard of living of the support recipient drops more than the standard of living than the support payor. When one party or the other drops below the poverty line after separation, it is most often the party with custody of the children It really just comes down to both parties having to tighten their belts because there are now two homes to maintain rather than one, and raising children is very expensive. One aspect that sometimes is unbalanced is when the children spend a lot of time at both parties’ residences, but not enough time at the secondary residence to trigger support flowing both ways. The support tables up here were based on a primary residence being supported, with the children only having occasional and short stays at the support payor’s residence (e.g. every other weekend and an evening or overnight during the week). What they do not take into consideration is that often the support payor has the children for longer periods, and therefore requires a home suitable for the children rather than a bachelor pad. ---
**Author:** ![TruCelt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/trucelt/32/523_2.png) [@TruCelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TruCelt)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2010, 11:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/child-support-amounts-are-out-of-control/553077/45 "2010-09-09T11:32:31Z")
> [@Edward\_The\_Head](#): > > It’s not feasible for me to keep them at this time over night. I have the children twice a week and every other weekend so I see and do a lot with the children, it’s the nights that are what count. So even on the weekend visits they don’t spend the night? This sounds like you haven’t made a space in your house for your children. Is that correct? ---
**Author:** ![Ca3799](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9f8e36/32.png) [@Ca3799](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ca3799)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2010, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/child-support-amounts-are-out-of-control/553077/46 "2010-09-09T13:26:51Z")
In my state, child support is set at 25% for the first child and 5% for each additional child. It seems that staying married costs about 100%. ---
**Author:** ![TruCelt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/trucelt/32/523_2.png) [@TruCelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TruCelt)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2010, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/child-support-amounts-are-out-of-control/553077/47 "2010-09-09T14:59:14Z")
> [@Ca3799](#): > > . . . It seems that staying married costs about 100%. As does the title of custodial parent. I’m not saying there are no exceptions, we’ve heard examples on this very board of parents who use child support for their own luxuries instead of for the child. Worse, yet, some use it to support thier own addictions. But a custodial parent can never say “Sorry, no Doctor’s visit for you, I’ve already given my x% for your welfare this month.” ---
**Author:** ![Notchimine](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/bcef8e/32.png) [@Notchimine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Notchimine)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2010, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/child-support-amounts-are-out-of-control/553077/48 "2010-09-09T15:56:36Z")
Since it isn’t “feasible” for you to raise your kids half the time, then essentially, you’re paying for the ex to do so. If you want to step up and have your kids exactly half the time, then you would both be paying for the children as you had them and no other money would need to exchange hands. The formula seems to be against you only because you don’t want the inconvenience of being a parent and would rather have your kids visit you. ---
**Author:** ![Lightnin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightnin/32/180_2.png) [@Lightnin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightnin)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2010, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/child-support-amounts-are-out-of-control/553077/49 "2010-09-09T16:03:17Z")
> [@Notchimine](#): > > The formula seems to be against you only because you don’t want the inconvenience of being a parent and would rather have your kids visit you. I was wondering how long it would take to get to the “blame the OP” stage. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2010, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/child-support-amounts-are-out-of-control/553077/50 "2010-09-09T16:19:46Z")
It seems like child raising costs are out of control. Using an inflation calculator the $20,000/year for day care would have cost my parents when I was that age around $2,643. The $18,000 for pre school would have cost them $2,379. Yeah, my parents **never** would have paid that. I also find it unlikely that a $200,000 household income is “average” for the D.C. area. Considering I don’t live all that far from the DC area, and given the numbers I’ve seen (19% of DC area residents are under the poverty line, median individual income of $56,000) I think we’re in a situation where your moderate affluence has lead you to dramatically expand your costs beyond that which most people of lesser means would see. I can certainly bet you that the 19% of DC area residents who live below the poverty line aren’t sending their kids to $20k/year day care or $18k/ year private preschools. I understand that $200k household income actually “doesn’t go that far” in DC, but I go up to DC a lot and there is a lot of extreme poverty in the DC area. The problem seems to be that you and your wife both were living a lifestyle that just wasn’t really that wise at your income level. It’s unfortunate that people’s extended families have mostly deteriorated as a strength. When I was a kid I lived close to two sets of living grand parents, and both of my parents were children of large families. My father had 5 siblings and my mother had four siblings. Additionally there were many friends in the community. My mother didn’t work outside of the home so obviously the issue of day care or preschool never presented itself. However my mother was often watching her sister’s kids or a neighbor’s kids. Sometimes I’d be taken to an aunt or a grandparent or a neighbor’s house. No one sent their kid to paid-daycare or paid preschool back then. However, I understand that these days people grow up and move away from their roots and set up shop in totally different regions. I also understand most neighborhoods no longer have any sense of community whatsoever. Unfortunately that has direct economic consequences in this case. Maybe that is part of the reason those 19% of impoverished DC area residents are able to _survive_ with kids. I’m betting a lot of them are _from_ the DC area and probably have extensive familial networks helping them out. I can also say that when I was a kid I shared a room with two siblings and it was a _small_ room. There was a bunk bed on one wall and a single on the other wall. There was one dresser in between the beds at the back wall that held all three of our clothes in addition to a single small closet. The space in between the beds was narrow enough that only one person at a time could easily walk through it. My parents bedroom fit a queen bed with a wardrobe, my dad’s dresser, and a decent sized closet but it was still relatively small. Of course, we spent virtually no time in our room. Bedrooms were for sleeping in, and nothing else. ---
**Author:** ![Notchimine](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/bcef8e/32.png) [@Notchimine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Notchimine)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2010, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/child-support-amounts-are-out-of-control/553077/51 "2010-09-09T17:02:01Z")
> [@Lightnin](#): > > > [@Notchimine](#): > > > > The formula seems to be against you only because you don’t want the inconvenience of being a parent and would rather have your kids visit you. > > I was wondering how long it would take to get to the “blame the OP” stage. It isn’t about “blame”. The reality is that child support is determined by the amount of time each parent has the child. If the OP doesn’t want to put in the time to parent, then he has to pay someone else to do it. His financial liability is in direct proportion to his choices regarding the time put in raising his children. If he parents his children half the time then the financial decisions as to what to spend the money on belongs directly to him and not to the other parent. He isn’t a victim, he is making a choice and doesn’t particularly care for the results of that choice. ---
**Author:** ![rogerbox](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/76d3ee/32.png) [@rogerbox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rogerbox)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2010, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/child-support-amounts-are-out-of-control/553077/52 "2010-09-09T17:18:50Z")
> [@Notchimine](#): > > > [@Lightnin](#): > > > > I was wondering how long it would take to get to the “blame the OP” stage. > > It isn’t about “blame”. I don’t believe there is enough information from this thread to glean that he “doesn’t want the inconvenience of being a parent”. It sounds like you are jumping to conclusions. ---
**Author:** ![Dogzilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e480ec/32.png) [@Dogzilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dogzilla)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2010, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/child-support-amounts-are-out-of-control/553077/53 "2010-09-09T17:25:29Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > I think we’re in a situation where your moderate affluence has lead you to dramatically expand your costs beyond that which most people of lesser means would see. > > I can certainly bet you that the 19% of DC area residents who live below the poverty line aren’t sending their kids to $20k/year day care or $18k/ year private preschools. > > I understand that $200k household income actually “doesn’t go that far” in DC, but I go up to DC a lot and there is a lot of extreme poverty in the DC area. The problem seems to be that you and your wife both were living a lifestyle that just wasn’t really that wise at your income level. This was all I was really getting at, only you said it much more succinctly. Still wondering what the lawyer’s advice has been – in a general way. The specifics are none of my business. ---
**Author:** ![Edward\_The\_Head](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ce73a5/32.png) [@Edward\_The\_Head](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Edward_The_Head)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2010, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/child-support-amounts-are-out-of-control/553077/54 "2010-09-09T17:29:52Z")
> [@Notchimine](#): > > If the OP doesn’t want to put in the time to parent, then he has to pay someone else to do it. His financial liability is in direct proportion to his choices regarding the time put in raising his children. I really wasn’t going to even bother responding, but now I will. Just so you know the courts do NOT take into account the amount of time spent with the children, only the nights. Period. I could be with them every day until 8 when they go to bed and it counts for nothing. But since you want to know the real answer, I have to be out the door no later then 6:45, if I’m later then that I miss my train to work, if I do that then I’m late to work and I can’t leave until 5, which means I don’t get home until 6, which means I don’t get to pick up my children until 6:15, that’s 45 minutes after school closes, which would mean paying an extra $45 every day. So instead of having my kids stay with me they say with her, she takes them to school, I pick them up from school so she doesn’t have to come home until 6:30 herself. I have time with my kids 4 nights a week. I would keep the kids some nights, but it will not work out at this time. But I spend plenty of time with my children thank you very much. And with the exception of them being here in the morning the time hasn’t really changed. ---
**Author:** ![Edward\_The\_Head](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ce73a5/32.png) [@Edward\_The\_Head](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Edward_The_Head)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2010, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/child-support-amounts-are-out-of-control/553077/55 "2010-09-09T17:44:31Z")
And just a cite for [average income](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highest-income_counties_in_the_United_States) in Montgomery county, MD, at $94000, which is what I make. And for [House prices](http://www.trulia.com/home_prices/Maryland/Montgomery_County-heat_map/). Of which my house is also middle of the road. I still resent having people say I make too much money or can’t make good financial decisions. The difference is totally different here then a lot of mid America and I know is. Again, anyone take 50% of your pay and try and live where you do. But again I’m not going to get sucked into this being about me. As I said I’ll make it work, no matter what it is. I’m going to bow out of the thread though if it just continues this way. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2010, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/child-support-amounts-are-out-of-control/553077/56 "2010-09-09T17:45:01Z")
> [@nyctea scandiaca](#): > > > [@Strassia](#): > > > > First, the obvious way out of paying child support is to man up and fight for custody of your kids. Then let her pay child support. > > This. > > At least fight for 50% physical custody. You said it wasn’t feasible for the girls to stay with you overnight. Well you really need to make it feasible. It is very important that you fight for this now at the beginning, and not later on. It’s harder to change the living situation the more time goes by. > > I feel your pain. My boyfriend is in a very similar situation, which I have written about here before. The system is undeniably set up in favor of the mother. Like you, my BF is paying over 50% of his earnings to his ex-wife. > > The difference in his case is that his ex is unemployed, so he has to pay a higher amount. It’s strange that in your case you are having to pay such a high amount when your ex is employed and making the same amount as you. > > Please talk to your attorney and get this resolved. Do you want to live poor for the next 15 years? You don’t have to. It will be a fight, and yes you may lose due to the biased system, but don’t give up! I have problems with both of these… **Strassia** - I really find the use of the term “man up” offensive here. Am I somehow less of a man because I didn’t fight for physical custody of my son? I knew it was not possible for him to live with me - I rarely get home before 8 pm from work, I travel overseas for a couple of months a year, and I work most weekends that he is not with me. I made the decision not to foght for custody based on what was best for my son, my ex-wife, and myself. **nyctea scandiaca** - seeking custody should be done if it is in the best interests of the child, not to make a point or to reduce expenditures. Otherwise you are using the children for your own benefit. ---
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2010, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/child-support-amounts-are-out-of-control/553077/57 "2010-09-09T17:59:09Z")
> [@Edward\_The\_Head](#): > > And just a cite for [average income](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highest-income_counties_in_the_United_States) in Montgomery county, MD, at $94000, which is what I make. That’s household income. Your former household income would be roughly 200k, which is pretty high. I live in DC, so I know the costs of things around here. Even so, I think you are paying a lot in daycare expenses. I would suggest finding a different place to send your kids. Maybe even a retired day care provider, or something like that. You should attempt to impress upon your wife and her representatives that a divorce has consequences. I think cutting back in general is a good idea, and the best place to do so is with your daycare expenses. If not, at least the schools in MD are good. Is the time you spend with your kids figured into the payments? If you spend 4 nights a week with them, it seems like they spend a decent chunk of their time with you. Ideally, that should count for something. As an aside, what area of Montgomery County are you in? ---
**Author:** ![Strassia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e8c25b/32.png) [@Strassia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Strassia)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2010, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/child-support-amounts-are-out-of-control/553077/58 "2010-09-09T18:20:37Z")
> [@villa](#): > > > [@nyctea scandiaca](#): > > > > This. > > > > At least fight for 50% physical custody. You said it wasn’t feasible for the girls to stay with you overnight. Well you really need to make it feasible. It is very important that you fight for this now at the beginning, and not later on. It’s harder to change the living situation the more time goes by. > > > > I feel your pain. My boyfriend is in a very similar situation, which I have written about here before. The system is undeniably set up in favor of the mother. Like you, my BF is paying over 50% of his earnings to his ex-wife. > > > > The difference in his case is that his ex is unemployed, so he has to pay a higher amount. It’s strange that in your case you are having to pay such a high amount when your ex is employed and making the same amount as you. > > > > Please talk to your attorney and get this resolved. Do you want to live poor for the next 15 years? You don’t have to. It will be a fight, and yes you may lose due to the biased system, but don’t give up! > > I have problems with both of these… > > **Strassia** - I really find the use of the term “man up” offensive here. Am I somehow less of a man because I didn’t fight for physical custody of my son? I knew it was not possible for him to live with me - I rarely get home before 8 pm from work, I travel overseas for a couple of months a year, and I work most weekends that he is not with me. I made the decision not to foght for custody based on what was best for my son, my ex-wife, and myself. I meant it to be, not exactly offensive, but close. It is a gendered term to highlight what is usually a gendered issue. When a household splits, it is usually in a very predictable way. This is not a direct reflection on you or any other specific individual, but tell me, how would you expect the following blanks to be filled: “\_\_\_\_\_ took the kids and left me.” “\_\_\_\_\_ walked out and left me and the kids” “\_\_\_\_\_ isn’t paying child support and rarely has time to see the kids” “I can’t believe I’m paying child support after \_\_\_\_ shacked up with \_\_\_” I know there are specific anecdotes where each statement could be made about either gender, but the current socially accepted default is the women takes most of the responsibility for the children. The courts reflect it, employers reflect it, and media reflect it. But it doesn’t have to be this way. I know sometimes there are specific reasons for one parent or the other to have custody, but when those specific reasons mean the women has to take primary responsibility 80% of the time, it is telling us that there is more than random chance driving the trend. Taking gender out of it, child care is expensive and if you are not primary or at least 50/50 custodial then they court will make sure you pay your share. This certainly sucks if you legally your kids are supposed to spend 10% of the time with you, but actually care for them considerably more, but what are they supposed to do? Give you both time clocks to keep track of how much time the kids are with each week? Have each parent submit expense reports detail how much each spends on food, clothes, and pro rating utilities and rent? > [@](#): > > **nyctea scandiaca** - seeking custody should be done if it is in the best interests of the child, not to make a point or to reduce expenditures. Otherwise you are using the children for your own benefit. ---
**Author:** ![TruCelt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/trucelt/32/523_2.png) [@TruCelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TruCelt)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2010, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/child-support-amounts-are-out-of-control/553077/59 "2010-09-09T18:26:19Z")
[quote=Notchimine;12895003 . . . If the OP doesn’t want to put in the time to parent, then he has to pay someone else to do it. . .[/quote] No. The OP produced children, who must now be provided for, and he therefore must provide his part of that support. This is not a payment to or for the other parent. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2010, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/child-support-amounts-are-out-of-control/553077/60 "2010-09-09T18:27:10Z")
> [@CaveMike](#): > > > [@begbert2](#): > > > > The mother is married and doesn’t work to any noticeable degree. Her husband’s income doesn’t count. So she’s ‘technically’ broke, leaving my brother to have to pay a lion’s share. > > Consider the opposite case: If your brother’s ex was still single, but your brother was remarried – should his wife’s income count towards calculating his contribution? Yes. If you want to try and confuse me, start mentioning cases where the person is being supported by persons who are _not_ legally joined to them at the hip. Like, say, if the mother was living with her parents (like, uh, my brother is with mine). In that case I would say that the parents’ income should not be counted in either case. But marriage? It’s all going into the same pot, legally speaking. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/child-support-amounts-are-out-of-control/553077.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/child-support-amounts-are-out-of-control/553077.md?page=4)