Child Support: Really that bad?

OTOH, let’s not forget that only about 45% of custodial parents actually get all of the support that they are owed.

http://www.census.gov/Press-Release/www/releases/archives/families_households/001575.html

Non-custodial parents disappear, get paid under the table, or lose their jobs (for good or bad reasons), and agencies that enforce child support awards can be quite slothful.

OTOOH, I’m not sure we need agencies to collect child support, when private lawyers might be more motivated to do so. The agencies slow things down, screw up the amounts owed, tack on extra charges to administer the awards, and use local, state, and federal funds to do it all.

Balthisar: * IME, as a lawyer and as a child support payer, higher support tends to lead to a better lifestyle for the custodial parent as much as it does for the kid. *

In practical terms, though, how could you avoid such a result? Rent a separate, more expensive house for the children while the custodial parent pays his/her own rent elsewhere? Send the kids to a better school but demand that the ex not socialize with the other school parents? Buy the kids a new TV on condition that the custodial parent can’t watch it?

As long as basic living expenses and environment are shared by the children and the custodial parent, I don’t see any feasible way to get around the fact that an improved economic standard of living for the kids will mean a better lifestyle for the parent they live with.

Balthisar: Also custodial parents are pretty much exempt from imputed income which means that they can change careers, stop working, or start a home business (that loses money for a few years), while the non-custodial parent has to take jobs that pay at least as much as when support was first ordered.

Again, though, this sounds like the same basic money/care disparity that I mentioned above. Custodial parents have heavier and more stringent responsibilities when it comes to actually doing the work of caring for the children. Non-custodial parents have heavier and more stringent responsibilities when it comes to providing money for their support. Neither of those things is particularly fair.

Agreed. It’d just be nice for it to not be a free ride. The custodial parent should really have to find the highest paying job that they can, even if they don’t like it. I can see spending time at home with the kids while they are young, but only for the ones that you already have. Once they are in school, there is less of an excuse, and you shouldn’t be able to defer returning to work by having more kids with someone else. That excuse doesn’t work for the non-custodial parent.

Custodial parents must ask a court for custody. If they don’t want custody, they don’t have to take it. They are volunteering for “more stingent responsibilities.” This is generally not true of non-custodial parents. In fact, in the typical case, the argument becomes circular.

Mom seeks custody, saying, “hey, dad has been working, so the kids have a closer bond with me–besides, he is at work all day, so he can’t care for them.” Mom gets custody. Dad wants to take a less demanding job so that he can spend more time with the kids, and gets hit with, “Hey, you can’t quit your job. You can only increase your income–not decrease it.”

And its Gfactor, BTW

Hey! Watch whom you’re quoting!

Gfactor, sorry about misattributing your remarks to Balthisar! Balthisar, sorry about misattributing to you things you didn’t say! Jeez, me read pretty one day.

And I’m not claiming that custodial parents don’t voluntarily seek custody—just that custody comes with an unfair (but realistically unavoidable) imbalance in childcare duties.

The fact that parents voluntarily seek custodial status doesn’t make that imbalance fair. It just means that given the choice, and given the accompanying compensations, they’d rather be saddled with an unfair amount of the childcare than with an unfair amount of the responsibility for financial support.

Speaking as an unmarried non-parent, and seeing what divorced parents go through both in terms of caring for kids and in terms of paying child-support payments, I’d say it pretty much looks like a wash as far as unfair burdens are concerned. I feel sorry for all divorced parents (except the ones who are actually unethical/irresponsible, that is).

I totally agree, though, that there shouldn’t be an automatic bias in favor of the custodial parent/primary caregiver being the mother. I hope more fathers will come to spend more time as primary caregivers while they’re still married; in addition to the other advantages, it will allow them to make a better case for custodial status if they should happen to get divorced in the future.

We are only arguing about what amount of unfair responsibility for financial support is justified by the assumption of an unfair amount of childcare. And I don’t think we even disagree much about that.

But let me point one more thing out. If a custodial parent works, that parent (in every state that I know about) will get her childcare subsidized (by an adjustment in support). States make the adjustments in different ways, but the financial burdens of childcare at least vis a vis work, are shared. (Of course, this assumes that the other parent is known, under order, and working). Does this change your argument at all?

Speaking as a (::sigh:: twice) divorced parent I can say:

  1. I’m really glad I got a vasectomy. :smiley:
  2. Hi Opal!
  3. As a large group of cases, I’d say you are right. No matter how you slice it, somebody is going to be unhappy. And it probably works out mostly even (especially when you consider the number of custodial parents who actually get what they are owed.)

Some would say we brought it on ourselves.

I would say also that time has a value. As the custodial parent I spent a great deal of time each month running errands pertaining to my daughter, taking her to appointments, sporting events etc. These are things that my husband and I used to take turns doing for her. The custodial parent also loses the freedom to come and go as he/she pleases. If I want any time to myself, I must pay someone to care for my child.

Just to be clear, I don’t mind at all doing these things for my daughter. I just wanted to point out that some things can’t be accounted for in actual dollars.

Gfactor: If a custodial parent works, that parent (in every state that I know about) will get her childcare subsidized (by an adjustment in support). States make the adjustments in different ways, but the financial burdens of childcare at least vis a vis work, are shared. (Of course, this assumes that the other parent is known, under order, and working). Does this change your argument at all?

To a certain extent, but not very much. When I talked of “the burdens of childcare”, I didn’t mean the burden of paying for professional daycare or babysitting services. I meant the day-in-and-day-out tasks of caring for and supervising a child who lives with you, dealing with their meals and baths and temper tantrums and laundry and transportation and accidents and acting up and illnesses and everything else.

Yes, if professional daycare providers look after the child during the working day—and especially if the other parent pays for all or most of the daycare fees—that does ease that burden somewhat. But there’s still an awful lot of work to be done by the custodial parent in the remaining hours of the day and night taking care of the rest of the child’s needs, and trying to combine it with the parent’s own job commitments on top of that.

So ISTM that even with a double income and paid childcare, the custody situation is still generally putting an unfair drain on the time and energy of the custodial parent and an unfair drain on the finances of the non-custodial one.

And a hell of a drain it can be, too, in both cases. I support divorce rights and blended families and all that, but from a purely logistical standpoint, it seems pretty undeniable that the most efficient way to cope with the huge task of childrearing is when the parents work as a team within a united family and pool their resources. (Actually, probably the most efficient way to cope is some kind of commune/joint-family/kibbutz model where a larger pool of adults shares the childrearing burdens, but that’s not socially feasible for most American families. More’s the pity, because it would probably ease the impacts of divorce too.)

However, I think you’re right that we aren’t actually disagreeing that much on what the problems are.

(And I do think that both custodial and non-custodial parents should be allowed to diminish their support somewhat—not much, and not below a generous baseline level, but somewhat—if they have, say, one or two additional kids with a new partner. After all, it’s just a fact of life that older kids get a somewhat smaller share of parental attention and money when younger kids arrive. If the divorced parents had stayed together, the existing kids would have had to accept that change if more babies were born, and I don’t see why they shouldn’t be expected to accept it if the parents are divorced. The point is supposed to be that the benefits of having siblings compensate for having to share with them the parental care and spending that used to be devoted solely to you, and I think that argument should hold for half-siblings too.)

You are correct, but child support is not parent compensation. Yes, you missed out on some freedom by being the custodial parent, buy that’s what it means to be a custodial parent. And I hear you saying exactly that–you chose custody because it is worth it.

By divorcing, a couple also vastly increases the overall living expenses of the family, this is the part that the law has more trouble addressing. Basically, either spouse can decide that they want to end the marriage or do something that causes the other spouse to do so. By making that decision, one spouse can decide to increase everyone’s expenses; the other spouse has no legal recourse to prevent this. For this loss, there is little compensation.

*After all, it’s just a fact of life that older kids get a somewhat smaller share of parental attention and money when younger kids arrive. *

How is that a fact of life? In my experience as a divorced Mom, my teenage son is significantly more expensive then my 6 year old daughter. SIGNIFICANTLY! Shoes, clothing, entertainment expenses, books, etc etc. The 500 dollars per month 16 years ago that was fine for buying diapers, formula and paying the doctor bills is no where near enough now.
For the record, I send my children to private school so essentially every penny I receive is accounted for as part of a tuition payment. However, if I choose not to do this or didn’t have the income myself to afford this luxury, I certainly don’t think I should have to account for every penny spent. It is enough that the children are well taken care of and living a lifestyle at least as well as their non custodial parent.

Foxy40: *How is that a fact of life? In my experience as a divorced Mom, my teenage son is significantly more expensive then my 6 year old daughter. *

Sorry for the confusion: I didn’t mean “older kids get a smaller share of parental attention and money than younger kids”. I meant, “older kids get a smaller share of parental attention and money when younger kids arrive than they used to have before they had siblings.”

Obviously, on average, only children get a larger individual share of finite parental resources than children with younger siblings do. Even if, as you point out, the older sibling may be getting a much larger share than the younger sibling, it’s still less than the older sibling used to get as an only child. Am I clear?

Agreed. Kids get much more expensive in their teen years. Sure you don’t have daycare, but believe me, they make up for it.

I know this is an isolated case, but it is true. Many years ago, I was dating a guy who had a child with his former wife. I don’t remember the exact amount of the payment, but he was paid weekly so he paid his ex-wife weekly, usually on Saturday when he picked up the baby. On more than one occasion, he would get a call from Ex on Friday afternoon saying “I’m flat broke and Baby needs diapers, etc. - can I pick up the child support today?” No problem. Until we went out that night and saw her in a bar. Not on a date - with her friends. Of course we couldn’t prove she was using the child support money to party, but… .

In addition, Ex was faithful about sending the oldest, most worn out, out grown clothes with Baby whenever she came for a visit. No diapers, of course. A single guy is expected to just keep that kind of thing around the house. So we would go buy a new outfit or two and diapers every time we got the baby. I quickly learned to keep the clothes we bought or we would never see them again.

Yes, this woman abused the system. I do believe, however, there are many more custodial parents who are abused by the system that the opposite.

Gfactor: *You are correct, but child support is not parent compensation. *

No, but its purpose is to help the custodial parent care for the child. It’s to be spent on things that will benefit the child, be they rent, food, education, clothes, daycare, household help, etc. Giving the custodial parent a little more freedom and breathing space—which still leaves him/her with vastly less freedom than the non-custodial parent has—also benefits the child. Would any non-custodial parent really want his/her kids looked after by a frazzled, overworked, stressed-out zombie just because “dammit, they voluntarily chose to be the custodial parent, so if they can’t cope with it that’s their problem”?

Now, I agree that taking this argument to extremes is an invitation to abuses. “I’m spending the child-support payment on silicone implants because they’ll make me happy, and I’m a better mother when I’m happy!” Nice try, but no. However, I’m inclined to think that the vast majority of custodial parents aren’t abusing their position of trust in any such way.

Was responding specifically to this bit.

My point is that this is exactly the type of burden that one chooses when they seek custody. I didn’t see the poster claiming that she was a stressed-out zombie, or really complaining about anything. She was merely saying, “I have to watch my child by myself or pay someone to do it if I want to go out and do grown up stuff by myself.” To which I respond, “Yep, you do. You don’t get any extra money for taking care of your own child–or not taking care of the child so that you can be a better caregiver.”

And no, I wouldn’t want my child cared for by a stressed-out zombie. But I insist that it is not my responsibility to be a respite provider (Personally, I visit my kids frequently, and in effect, offer my exes free time to do what they want. And I don’t get paid for child care either.)

Let me repeat my experience here, because I think it tests those extremes:

My ex spent $2500 on braces–for herself–while she was unemployed. She did not have any investment income, and nobody else was paying her bills. She pretty clearly used child support money to get herself braces. Ya think that makes her a better mom?

Well, maybe, because you see, it was part of her larger scheme to “marry up.” The next year, while still unemployed, she spent $5000 on a dating service, at which she met husband number 2. Who acted just like his number. When husband number 2 moved in, my daughter needed counseling to deal with the fact that he was a complete prick, among other things. Guess who paid the bill for the counseling? Was any of this a benefit to my kid?

Now she is divorcing husband number 2, who is paying twice as much support as I am, working part-time, and already engaged to number 3.

That would make sense if the rule determined the exact amount that the noncustodial parent would spend on his child, but it doesn’t. It’s a minimum.

If the court orders you to pay $300 a month, and you have an extra $200 lying around after you pay it, you can spend that money on your kid too. And if you’re correct about what the majority of parents think, then most of them would do just that.

Gfactor, I would just like to say, in case no one else has told you, your ex is a skeeze. You do yourself credit taking care of your children and they are lucky to have you, because they would br lost otherwise.

I don’t know how to develop a policy that can prevent someone like her form taking advatage of it. She seems like the type of person who will game whatever system she’s in.

Gfactor: *My point is that this is exactly the type of burden that one chooses when they seek custody. *

Okay then. And the burden of supporting a kid financially—including the potential burden of paying an unfair amount of support whose unsupervisable expenditure by an ex-spouse is open to abuses—is exactly the type of burden that one chooses when they seek to have children. (And choosing to be the primary breadwinner instead of the primary caregiver, which decreases one’s chances of obtaining custody in the event of a divorce, is also voluntary.)

I mean, if we’re going to harp on the “voluntary-choice” factor as a reason to discount unfair burdens on custodial parents, we can do that for non-custodial parents as well. There’s a voluntary choice involved somewhere for almost all parents, so if that automatically makes their burdens not-unfair, I guess I can stop feeling sorry for any divorced parents. You brought it all on yourselves. Tough noodles.

I think I prefer my original attitude that life is especially burdensome for parents after a divorce, although the unfair burdens of custodial vs. non-custodial parents tend to be different. And the fact that all divorced parents, at some point or other, chose to get themselves into this mess doesn’t mean that their hardships aren’t unfair or that they don’t deserve sympathy. (Except, as I said before, for the ones who are genuinely irresponsible or unethical, which certainly sounds like an accurate description of your ex-wife in particular.)

Mr. 2001: That would make sense if the rule determined the exact amount that the noncustodial parent would spend on his child, but it doesn’t. It’s a minimum.

Right. And most people seem to feel that even the minimum amount of financial support provided by a non-custodial parent should reflect that parent’s own standard of living, not just some universal “orphanage standard” adequate to provide basic necessities for any child at any socioeconomic level. Am I not being clear about this?

I thought you were saying it was justified because most people were willing themselves to spend as much as possible on their kids, not because most people are willing to force others to spend as much as possible on their kids.

Willingness to spend other people’s money doesn’t seem like much of a justification to me. Obviously the law remains the way it is because most people don’t object to it, but IMO this is a case where the majority is wrong.

Kimstu, can I be just a little bit nitpicky for a second, and off-topic? Your quoting style is a little bit distracting and outside the norm for what we usually see here. And I feel like hiding when I mention it because you have 2000 posts more than I do.

In a manner of recompense, I appreciate you posting content!