# Childfree is anti-natalism and anti-natalism is bigotry **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 2, 2010, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/childfree-is-anti-natalism-and-anti-natalism-is-bigotry/523443 "2010-01-02T22:53:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2010, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/childfree-is-anti-natalism-and-anti-natalism-is-bigotry/523443/181 "2010-01-04T22:01:01Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > I’m a tax paying citizens that’s contributing to society. Children are a burden on society until they can contribute; therefore, they should always come second to adults. But what childfree people are frighting far is simple equality, not a “prioritization” over children. You have simple equality. In fact your paying of taxes entitles you to rights not afforded to children. As an adult you can purchase and consume alcohol, own a gun, drive a car, and vote in elections. So you clearly are not ‘frighting’ for equality, you are ‘frighting’ for the subjugation of children when no problem really exists. For some reason you have decided that children oppress you. Nevermind that you can do anything you want whenever you want within your means. **Catwhisperer** , **Crawlspace** , here’s your example of someone claiming oppression. I mean other than your insistance that I kowtow to your selective redefinition of the English language. What you are complaining about is that children are not sequestered from adult society. You are complaining that there isn’t some form of segregation, some form of discrimination against children. The tax code recognizes that children grow up into adults, and it was written by people who can look at this issue rationally. It recognizes that all of us at one point were children, and that children are necessary to bring up the next generation, so that when you once again are a non-productive member of society, there will be workers working to support your non-productive ass. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2010, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/childfree-is-anti-natalism-and-anti-natalism-is-bigotry/523443/182 "2010-01-04T22:02:38Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > The dog and it’s handler didn’t do any of that as a puppyor a child, but as an adult handler and and adult dog. Adults contribute. Outside of the odd genius, children only consume and use. Adults start out as children. This is obvious to any well-adjusted adult. Your comparison is stupid. You are comparing the productivity of an adult dog to the productivity of a child human. Your comparison should be of your adult dog to an adult human. An adult being a child who has reached the age of 18. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2010, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/childfree-is-anti-natalism-and-anti-natalism-is-bigotry/523443/183 "2010-01-04T22:04:20Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > I don’t think having an extended family is something that should be looked down on. I just think it’s clear that this extended family did not raise you as properly as you claim because people who have been raised properly can cope with the fact that children sometimes cross their paths and sometimes are noisy. That’s the bottom line, you can’t cope, you’ve said so yourself. Now you are defending the right to say hateful and bigotted things because other people say hateful and bigotted things in other venues. You appear to be unable to cope with the fact that there are people in the world that do not adore and worship children. And my right to say I can’t stand the noise of children is part of the Constitution of the United States (you know, freedom of speech). It’s not a matter of “coping”. It’s a matter of in a polite society I shouldn’t have to always accept excuses for children’s bad behavior. The bad behavior should be recognized as an offense to society and dealt with. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2010, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/childfree-is-anti-natalism-and-anti-natalism-is-bigotry/523443/184 "2010-01-04T22:04:27Z")
> [@Cat\_Whisperer](#): > > I was wondering that myself, but I didn’t want to waste my time wading through this thread again (once was more than enough). Any other Dopers want to do the dirty work? I think I’ve claimed that people don’t always mind their own business, but I don’t think I went as far as claiming oppression of my people at any point (the “my people” thing is a joke, by the way, for the humour-impaired - hyperbole for effect, I believe this one is). Sure, post 18. > [@](#): > > Parents in our society constantly demand exaggerated respect and deference. They demand that all of society follow their rules, that everyone give their opinions respect just because they have a child, talk about how they are superior beings, and sneer at those who don’t have children like they were vermin. The “oppression” word isn’t used, but certainly the concept is there. ---
**Author:** ![StusBlues](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dc4da7/32.png) [@StusBlues](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StusBlues)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2010, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/childfree-is-anti-natalism-and-anti-natalism-is-bigotry/523443/185 "2010-01-04T22:05:07Z")
Man, I can just feel the love in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2010, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/childfree-is-anti-natalism-and-anti-natalism-is-bigotry/523443/186 "2010-01-04T22:08:34Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > I’m a tax paying citizens that’s contributing to society. Children are a burden on society until they can contribute; therefore, they should always come second to adults. But what childfree people are fighting far is simple equality, not a “prioritization” over children. That’s just silly. A person’s moral worth is not measured by their current ability to “contribute”. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2010, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/childfree-is-anti-natalism-and-anti-natalism-is-bigotry/523443/187 "2010-01-04T22:08:56Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > You have simple equality. In fact your paying of taxes entitles you to rights not afforded to children. As an adult you can purchase and consume alcohol, own a gun, drive a car, and vote in elections. So you clearly are not ‘frighting’ for equality, you are ‘frighting’ for the subjugation of children when no problem really exists. > > For some reason you have decided that children oppress you. Nevermind that you can do anything you want whenever you want within your means. **Catwhisperer** , **Crawlspace** , here’s your example of someone claiming oppression. I mean other than your insistance that I kowtow to your selective redefinition of the English language. > > What you are complaining about is that children are not sequestered from adult society. You are complaining that there isn’t some form of segregation, some form of discrimination against children. The tax code recognizes that children grow up into adults, and it was written by people who can look at this issue rationally. It recognizes that all of us at one point were children, and that children are necessary to bring up the next generation, so that when you once again are a non-productive member of society, there will be workers working to support your non-productive ass. Given the quality of today’s children, it is more likely I will be supporting their non-productive asses in prison, long before the children in my family (because they have been properly raised) will be supporting me. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2010, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/childfree-is-anti-natalism-and-anti-natalism-is-bigotry/523443/188 "2010-01-04T22:10:48Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > You appear to be unable to cope with the fact that there are people in the world that do not adore and worship children. No, I don’t think we should put up with people who are bigotted against children. Basic civility is a far cry from adoration and worship. As anyone who has made it to adulthood knows. > [@](#): > > And my right to say I can’t stand the noise of children is part of the Constitution of the United States (you know, freedom of speech). Civility and legal rights are two different things as any adult who understands etiquette and law at all knows. > [@](#): > > It’s not a matter of “coping”. It’s a matter of in a polite society I shouldn’t have to always accept excuses for children’s bad behavior. The bad behavior should be recognized as an offense to society and dealt with. But it is a matter of coping. You are incapable of coping with the fact that sometimes children cry in public, and sometimes parents are less than stellar at their duties. It is all about coping. You can’t cope and so you hate children and parents as a result. The bad behavior of children is certainly not the norm. Kids have yet to learn the skills of etiquette, but the only way they will learn the skills of etiquette is to have interactions with other people. For the most part, children ARE sequestered from the adult world. They spend their time in venues where children are known to be, like playgrounds and schools, at home, etc… There are certain public venues where you need to accept that children will attend, like the mall, the grocery store etc… If you don’t want to see children at dinner, go to dinner at 8 at a nicer restaurant. There most likely won’t be kids there, and if there are you can go to another restaurant. If it is that important for you to tailor your life around avoiding children, then learn to cope and tailor your life. You expect, like most children, that the world will conform to your whims. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2010, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/childfree-is-anti-natalism-and-anti-natalism-is-bigotry/523443/189 "2010-01-04T22:11:13Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > You appear to be unable to cope with the fact that there are people in the world that do not adore and worship children. And my right to say I can’t stand the noise of children is part of the Constitution of the United States (you know, freedom of speech). It’s not a matter of > “coping”. It’s a matter of in a polite society I shouldn’t have to always accept excuses for children’s bad behavior. The bad behavior should be recognized as an offense to society and dealt with. Freedom of expression evidently applies to you. But you are arguing expressly that other persons should _not_ have that freedom - because it might annoy you! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2010, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/childfree-is-anti-natalism-and-anti-natalism-is-bigotry/523443/190 "2010-01-04T22:11:49Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > Given the quality of today’s children, it is more likely I will be supporting their non-productive asses in prison, long before the children in my family (because they have been properly raised) will be supporting me. LOL, precisely. And you have to hide the silver when the black guy comes over to fix the cable, because everyone knows that black people steal. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2010, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/childfree-is-anti-natalism-and-anti-natalism-is-bigotry/523443/191 "2010-01-04T22:12:24Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > That’s just silly. A person’s moral worth is not measured by their current ability to “contribute”. It’s not about moral worth. It’s basic etiquette. Elders are to be respected. Furthermore, children should be last and least largely because they are such an unknown. We have no way of knowing whether the resources contributed to a child will be used properly or squandered. With an adult this decision can be more clearly made based on their previous actions. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2010, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/childfree-is-anti-natalism-and-anti-natalism-is-bigotry/523443/192 "2010-01-04T22:14:34Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Freedom of expression evidently applies to you. But you are arguing expressly that other persons should _not_ have that freedom - because it might annoy you! 😃 Nonsense, I am saying, we should have equal rights to freedom of expression. If I scream in a theater or throw a sippy across a restaurant, I would be asked to leave or possibly escorted out by security. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2010, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/childfree-is-anti-natalism-and-anti-natalism-is-bigotry/523443/193 "2010-01-04T22:15:41Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > It’s not about moral worth. It’s basic etiquette. Elders are to be respected. Furthermore, children should be last and least largely because they are such an unknown. We have no way of knowing whether the resources contributed to a child will be used properly or squandered. With an adult this decision can be more clearly made based on their previous actions. So - what about those adults who are not in a position to pay taxes? Should they be “respected” at all? Or, I’m a high earner and I pay a _lot_ of taxes. Should you respect me - more? Seems a rather repugnant attitude to me. How about this one - respect people regardless. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2010, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/childfree-is-anti-natalism-and-anti-natalism-is-bigotry/523443/194 "2010-01-04T22:17:07Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > It’s not about moral worth. It’s basic etiquette. Elders are to be respected. Yes of course, elders are to be respected. I think we all agree with that statement. > [@](#): > > Furthermore, children should be last and least largely because they are such an unknown. We have no way of knowing whether the resources contributed to a child will be used properly or squandered. With an adult this decision can be more clearly made based on their previous actions. But that’s not how society is structured. Society is structured around treating people equally, not with some assumption that they may or may not become productive adults. Furthermore, if you want a child to become a productive adult you have to invest resources. Society as a whole has come to the decision that investing in children makes sense. Which is why you have the luxury of living in the most successful and wealthy society in history, (Western society as a whole) because of these cultural beliefs. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2010, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/childfree-is-anti-natalism-and-anti-natalism-is-bigotry/523443/195 "2010-01-04T22:19:41Z")
[quote=“mswas, post:188, topic:523443”] you don’t want to see children at dinner, go to dinner at 8 at a nicer restaurant. There most likely won’t be kids there, and if there are you can go to another restaurant.QUOTE] I have seen screaming children at $50.00 a plate restaurants (which is some serious money in the area I live in) at ten o’clock at night. There are places where children should not be taken. Until parents respect this, they should expect death glares and nasty comments whenever they take children some place inappropriate. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2010, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/childfree-is-anti-natalism-and-anti-natalism-is-bigotry/523443/196 "2010-01-04T22:20:08Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > Nonsense, I am saying, we should have equal rights to freedom of expression. If I scream in a theater or throw a sippy across a restaurant, I would be asked to leave or possibly escorted out by security. The silliness lies in expecting the same standards of behaviour from an adult or child (and no, I’m not _really_ of the opinion that the US Constitution has anything to do with the matter). You can’t behave like a newborn, in public? Well, that’s just too bad. I feel for your deprivation, but honestly - normal humans give infants latitude that, by and large, they do not extend to adults. That being said, there are some venues young children should not be taken to, exactly because they cannot be expected to keep quiet on demand. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2010, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/childfree-is-anti-natalism-and-anti-natalism-is-bigotry/523443/197 "2010-01-04T22:21:19Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > How about this one - respect people regardless. I would love to see parents forced to this standard. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2010, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/childfree-is-anti-natalism-and-anti-natalism-is-bigotry/523443/198 "2010-01-04T22:21:26Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > I have seen screaming children at $50.00 a plate restaurants (which is some serious money in the area I live in) at ten o’clock at night. There are places where children should not be taken. Until parents respect this, they should expect death glares and nasty comments whenever they take children some place inappropriate. Well I agree with you that this is not appropriate behavior for the parents. They shouldn’t be bringing kids to fancy restaurants past their bedtimes. But what does this have to do with parenthood as a whole? Someone did their job as a parent poorly. So what? ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2010, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/childfree-is-anti-natalism-and-anti-natalism-is-bigotry/523443/199 "2010-01-04T22:22:32Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > I would love to see parents forced to this standard. Why just parents? ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2010, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/childfree-is-anti-natalism-and-anti-natalism-is-bigotry/523443/200 "2010-01-04T22:24:56Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > I would love to see parents forced to this standard. Know what? I’d love to see everyone, parents and non-parents alike, _attempt_ to reach for this standard for _themselves_. Rating people by how much they “contribute” strikes me as fairly repugnant, and moreover leads to some nasty self-serving entitled behaviour. The clarion cry of the entitled tends to be “I pay my taxes … !!!”. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/childfree-is-anti-natalism-and-anti-natalism-is-bigotry/523443.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/childfree-is-anti-natalism-and-anti-natalism-is-bigotry/523443.md?page=11)