# Childfree is anti-natalism and anti-natalism is bigotry **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 2, 2010, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/childfree-is-anti-natalism-and-anti-natalism-is-bigotry/523443 "2010-01-02T22:53:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2010, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/childfree-is-anti-natalism-and-anti-natalism-is-bigotry/523443/221 "2010-01-05T01:58:55Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > So disparaging terminology of any kind is effectively identical to the racial slurs you used here and earlier? No, HATEFUL terminology of any kind is effectively identical to the racial slures I used here and earlier. > [@](#): > > You’re not convincing me by compounding the silliness of your argument. What’s there to convince? My argument is self-evident. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2010, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/childfree-is-anti-natalism-and-anti-natalism-is-bigotry/523443/222 "2010-01-05T02:23:18Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > You couldn’t learn to act like an adult if you spent all your time in a “nursey facility,” could you? The line has certainly been bent in this thread, but this is too far over. Ratchet it back. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2010, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/childfree-is-anti-natalism-and-anti-natalism-is-bigotry/523443/223 "2010-01-05T02:27:48Z")
> [@Across](#): > > So I was wondering what an acceptable term would be? This is just a question for **mswas** , but for everyone participating in this debate. Obviously, some people will favour “childfree” despite the objections, and some will advocate “childless”. Is there a third choice that is perhaps not quite so controversial? Maybe the phrase “childless by choice” would work? I think the “by choice” negates the pejorative connotations of “childless”. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2010, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/childfree-is-anti-natalism-and-anti-natalism-is-bigotry/523443/224 "2010-01-05T02:50:30Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > Maybe the phrase “childless by choice” would work? I think the “by choice” negates the pejorative connotations of “childless”. childfree would be fine if it hadn’t accrued so much baggage. And childless by choice would accrue the baggage too if the childfree community continues to wink and nudge the nasty jokes rather than policing itself. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2010, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/childfree-is-anti-natalism-and-anti-natalism-is-bigotry/523443/225 "2010-01-05T03:04:52Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > No, HATEFUL terminology of any kind is effectively identical to the racial slures I used here and earlier. So some people hate children and some other people hate blacks, but I daresay the former is relatively harmless, unless you can point to some anti-child analogue of the Klan. If we’re not to consider the actions that follow the words, than the whole thing is a vapid pool of mootness. > [@](#): > > My argument is self-evident. If that was true, it’d be an axiom, not an argument. In any case, it all boils down to somebody on the internet saying something you don’t like. Big whoop. ---
**Author:** ![BigBertha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/d78d45/32.png) [@BigBertha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigBertha)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2010, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/childfree-is-anti-natalism-and-anti-natalism-is-bigotry/523443/226 "2010-01-05T03:38:40Z")
I’m a smarmy twit? Uh huh. Anyway, people do have the choice nowadays to not have children, for most of the human race going back millenia, they had no choice except to be celibate if they wanted to be childfree. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2010, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/childfree-is-anti-natalism-and-anti-natalism-is-bigotry/523443/227 "2010-01-05T04:05:59Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > So some people hate children and some other people hate blacks, but I daresay the former is relatively harmless, unless you can point to some anti-child analogue of the Klan. Ridicule it early and often and it never gets to that point. > [@](#): > > If that was true, it’d be an axiom, not an argument. In any case, it all boils down to somebody on the internet saying something you don’t like. Big whoop. You got it, you understood it your entire critique is over style not substance. Yes, some people are jerks on the internet and some people start threads on the internet about very minor points. Why start a thread like this when I could be talking about something important like how much Sarah Palin sucks right? ---
**Author:** ![CrazyCatLady](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/dfb087/32.png) [@CrazyCatLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CrazyCatLady)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2010, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/childfree-is-anti-natalism-and-anti-natalism-is-bigotry/523443/228 "2010-01-05T04:28:12Z")
> [@BigBertha](#): > > I’m a smarmy twit? Not you, necessarily, but most of the people I’ve encountered saying such rude, insulting things about me and my marriage based on what we want out of our lives, yes. And you can’t deny that saying something is inherently wrong with me, and implying that something is inherently wrong with my relationship with my husband, is indeed quite rude and insulting. And yet, **mswas** , for all your carry-on about how the childfree should police each other to condemn terms like “breeder” I don’t see you condemning someone outright saying there is something inherently wrong with those those of us who don’t want kids. You want to talk about rudeness and intent to be insulting…there it is. Right there. If you’re going to be intellectually honest and logically consistent, you need to give her the same castigation you expect me to give people who say things you consider insulting to you. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2010, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/childfree-is-anti-natalism-and-anti-natalism-is-bigotry/523443/229 "2010-01-05T04:39:48Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Ridicule it early and often and it never gets to that point. Well, far be it from to question the premise of eternal vigilance, but are you claiming that what you’re doing is ridicule? I think you’ve actually managed to turn some people who were previously indifferent to childfree message-boarders into sympathizers with them. Besides, in lieu of any child-lynching incidents (or at least I’m not aware of any), it’s just a bunch of people whose behavior gets reinforced by the group. The board quotes could easily be coming from their version of the Pit, where they blow off steam and throw crude insults around freely (and egg each other on) with no intention or desire to actually do anything about the object of their scorn. Seriously, how many hate-crimes directed against children have there been? Seems to be they’re at far more risk from their own parents than any number of non-reproducing child-haters. Policies that _you_ have argued on this board have more violent baggage attached. > [@](#): > > You got it, you understood it your entire critique is over style not substance. Yes, some people are jerks on the internet and some people start threads on the internet about very minor points. Why start a thread like this when I could be talking about something important like how much Sarah Palin sucks right? There are substantive comments one can make (and I have made) about Sarah Palin. What you’ve created here, though, is (as far as I can tell) just an exhibition of how much your feelings have been hurt. Somebody made a “genuflecting” remark of some kind and instead of taking them to the Pit for it, you went looking off-board for a concentrated form of the same attitude. The merit of such an accomplishment escapes me. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2010, 6:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/childfree-is-anti-natalism-and-anti-natalism-is-bigotry/523443/230 "2010-01-05T06:04:49Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Ridicule it early and often and it never gets to that point. Isn’t everybody glad we’ve got **mswas** here to defend us from the childfree? Get over yourself. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2010, 6:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/childfree-is-anti-natalism-and-anti-natalism-is-bigotry/523443/231 "2010-01-05T06:30:47Z")
> [@crazycatlady76](#): > > Not you, necessarily, but most of the people I’ve encountered saying such rude, insulting things about me and my marriage based on what we want out of our lives, yes. And you can’t deny that saying something is inherently wrong with me, and implying that something is inherently wrong with my relationship with my husband, is indeed quite rude and insulting. > > And yet, **mswas** , for all your carry-on about how the childfree should police each other to condemn terms like “breeder” I don’t see you condemning someone outright saying there is something inherently wrong with those those of us who don’t want kids. You want to talk about rudeness and intent to be insulting…there it is. Right there. If you’re going to be intellectually honest and logically consistent, you need to give her the same castigation you expect me to give people who say things you consider insulting to you. [Post 80](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=11950296&postcount=80) ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2010, 6:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/childfree-is-anti-natalism-and-anti-natalism-is-bigotry/523443/232 "2010-01-05T06:36:23Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Well, far be it from to question the premise of eternal vigilance, but are you claiming that what you’re doing is ridicule? I think you’ve actually managed to turn some people who were previously indifferent to childfree message-boarders into sympathizers with them. If it’s that easy to make people sympathize with bigotry well… We know what that means. But it doesn’t matter see. The childfree who come in here are mad at me for pointing it out. They aren’t mad at the other childfree for giving them a bad name, for making them look bad. They’re mad at me for making a thread about it. > [@](#): > > Besides, in lieu of any child-lynching incidents (or at least I’m not aware of any), it’s just a bunch of people whose behavior gets reinforced by the group. The board quotes could easily be coming from their version of the Pit, where they blow off steam and throw crude insults around freely (and egg each other on) with no intention or desire to actually do anything about the object of their scorn. This is a childish argument. Best to point out incivility before it becomes evil. > [@](#): > > Seriously, how many hate-crimes directed against children have there been? Seems to be they’re at far more risk from their own parents than any number of non-reproducing child-haters. Policies that _you_ have argued on this board have more violent baggage attached. Beside the point, and you know this. You’re just rabble-rousing for the lulz. > [@](#): > > There are substantive comments one can make (and I have made) about Sarah Palin. What you’ve created here, though, is (as far as I can tell) just an exhibition of how much your feelings have been hurt. Somebody made a “genuflecting” remark of some kind and instead of taking them to the Pit for it, you went looking off-board for a concentrated form of the same attitude. The merit of such an accomplishment escapes me. A lot of people have agreed with me. That you feel the need to ridicule me is beside the point. You enjoy doing that and do it often. This is entirely personal for you. Every tumor starts out as a single cell. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2010, 9:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/childfree-is-anti-natalism-and-anti-natalism-is-bigotry/523443/233 "2010-01-05T09:19:46Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Every tumor starts out as a single cell. Sort of like every rant starts out as a single post. This has long been tiresome and I have let it go too long without actually developing into a discussion. Open the next one in the Pit where it belongs. [/Moderating] [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/childfree-is-anti-natalism-and-anti-natalism-is-bigotry/523443.md?page=11)