# Childfree is anti-natalism and anti-natalism is bigotry **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 2, 2010, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/childfree-is-anti-natalism-and-anti-natalism-is-bigotry/523443 "2010-01-02T22:53:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![MeanOldLady](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/meanoldlady/32/10737_2.png) [@MeanOldLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MeanOldLady)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2010, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/childfree-is-anti-natalism-and-anti-natalism-is-bigotry/523443/41 "2010-01-03T15:36:07Z")
I guess I just don’t get the point of this thread, or where you’re going with this. What is the debate, or is this a rant you got worked up about because some mean people on the internet smack-talked babies? > [@](#): > > I do fear a culture where anti-natalism is considered ok, and normal. Why on Earth would you fear this? Do you really see the impending doom of civilization due to some widespread anti-natalism out there? Is this > [@](#): > > Referring to the majority of parents as being the ones that let their kids run free and play with toys off the shelf, who let their kids scream their heads off in restaurants are the norm, is the same as saying that the average black person is lazy and shiftless. It’s the same sort of bigotry, making everyone responsible for the worst of behaviors. anything like this > [@](#): > > Then there are the fanatics, and almost everyone I know who likes the term ‘childfree’ falls into this category. They are the ones most likely to use the negative anti-natalist terms. And I don’t think it’s a minority of ‘childfree’ who behave like this. Childfree as far as I can tell is a code-word for anti-natalist bigot. or this > [@](#): > > I am just going by the fact that every person I’ve met who likes the term ‘childfree’ is either an open anti-natalist bigot, or gives such bigotry a wink and a nudge as you did in the other thread when jackmanii was making bigotted jokes. Every person? Really? Well I suppose you have never met me, but I would describe myself as childfree, childless, without child, or would employ any other modifier that denotes I do not have children. > [@](#): > > Yes of course, there are assholes everywhere. But the childfree pretty much as a whole seem to have a chip on their shoulder. People who merely do not have children do not seem to have any trouble self-referring as ‘childless’. I’m sorry that you have harped on this free/less distinction so seriously. Where did this idea that all childfree people are angry would-be baby murderers come from? Did this all come from nasty message boards on the internet you’ve come across? This is an actual, real-word phenomenon? ---
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2010, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/childfree-is-anti-natalism-and-anti-natalism-is-bigotry/523443/42 "2010-01-03T15:53:26Z")
I propose a middle ground: we can celebrate children, yet bemoan **mswas’** decision to reproduce. ---
**Author:** ![MeanOldLady](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/meanoldlady/32/10737_2.png) [@MeanOldLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MeanOldLady)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2010, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/childfree-is-anti-natalism-and-anti-natalism-is-bigotry/523443/43 "2010-01-03T16:30:08Z")
Oh snap! ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2010, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/childfree-is-anti-natalism-and-anti-natalism-is-bigotry/523443/44 "2010-01-03T16:53:06Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > It’s really simple. If you call **all** of any group bad, you are practicing bigotry. > > And no getting around it by using the No True Scotsman fallacy. “My parents aren’t breeders because they actually raised me right. But all them other parents…” “Those childfree people who don’t disparage parents and kids, well, they’re really childless-by-choice, not child-free.” Sound remarkably similar to “Yeah, my black friends are nice people. But them others are n—” (Having grown up near the KKK capital, you hear that excuse a bit too much.) > > My guess: the reason why all the people that mswas knows that are childfree are bigots is because they’re more likely to be the ones that will make a big deal about it. It’s like my observation that most of the gay people I know are absolutely flaming. It’s selection-bias, that’s all. I’m mostly going by the Straight Dope and looking at the Child Free forum. The bigots are the ones who lament children getting medical care. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2010, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/childfree-is-anti-natalism-and-anti-natalism-is-bigotry/523443/45 "2010-01-03T16:54:46Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > It’s really simple. If you call **all** of any group bad, you are practicing bigotry. So calling all Nazis bad is bigotry? All serial killers? All torturers? All evil people? No; it’s not automatically bigotry to call all members of a group that people choose to be part of “bad”, because the group in question may be defined by being “bad”. It’s only bigotry then if you are factually wrong; an example of that would be someone who claimed that, say, Catholics secretly sacrifice Protestant babies. The bigotry there isn’t disliking Catholics; it’s doing so for fictional reasons. After all, if they did sacrifice babies that would be a perfectly just reason to dislike them. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2010, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/childfree-is-anti-natalism-and-anti-natalism-is-bigotry/523443/46 "2010-01-03T16:55:50Z")
> [@MeanOldLady](#): > > Why on Earth would you fear this? Do you really see the impending doom of civilization due to some widespread anti-natalism out there? Why are you defending this hateful shit? Therein lies the problem. You are treating it as though it’s valid. The proof is in the pudding. People are defending a hateful ideology. I don’t think that all ‘childfree’ people are this hateful, but the proof is in the pudding. Just go on childfree forums and you see post after post about how much they hate parents and children. I see on this particular forum epithets like ‘Breeder’ and ‘Cult of the Child’ thrown around. Don’t tell me that calling you, ‘childless’, is insulting when you’re going to walk around calling Mothers ‘Moos’. The fact that you feel the need to defend bigotry as though it’s equally valid just proves my point. I’m saying the term childfree is tainted by bigotry because of the primary responses you see on childfree forums. I mean they are lamenting that children haven’t died. Seriously. You honestly think that this is on the same level as, “Really you don’t want kids, how can you not want kids?” That’s the problem here. The Childfree on that forum are mad that a human being did not die. As opposed to the smug parents who do not understand the choice not to have a child. There simply is no equivalent one is hateful to the extreme the other is just slightly assholish. Notice, no attempt by you or anyone else to distance yourself from the people writing rants about how much they hate Mothers. Also, isn’t it interesting that the hate is almost exclusively aimed at Mothers? Why is it so mysogynistic and not equal opportunity? ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2010, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/childfree-is-anti-natalism-and-anti-natalism-is-bigotry/523443/47 "2010-01-03T17:05:21Z")
Here’s some gems from a DIFFERENT bratfree forum at [www.bratfree.com](http://www.bratfree.com) > [@](#): > > Brandon – Brandon Emerick, Shanksville Entry: 2890 on Date: 12-30-2009 04:28 > My mother is a slut. She screwed her father to create me. > Type: Rant This guy hates his Mother. Calls her a slut. > [@](#): > > juliette – fur baby moo Entry: 2889 on Date: 12-11-2009 21:03 > What I enjoy most about being a child free fur baby moo is, if your little ones ever become a danger or great inconvenience to society, you can take them to the good doctor and end their life. Also, if they fear you only a little, they respect you more and obey without questions. I am never asked for money or to borrow the car. I can end their reproductive urges without their consent. By the way they behave far better than any “living miracle” out there. > Thanks for letting me express my thoughts. > Juliette This one is glad that she can have pets because she can just kill them if she tires of them. Unlike children that you can’t just kill. See how much of these people want to KILL children? It’s not just wishing THEY didn’t have kids, it’s wanting children to be dead. If anyone talked about homosexuals or jews like that, the lot of you would be up in arms, but because they are talking about children, for some reason you’re making excuses and trying to turn this around on me. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2010, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/childfree-is-anti-natalism-and-anti-natalism-is-bigotry/523443/48 "2010-01-03T17:05:40Z")
> [@Beware\_of\_Doug](#): > > I think people are generally pretty okay until they are influenced by things like groups, trends, and mass psychology. So you don’t think anyone is okay then? Because you, me, and everyone else is constantly under the influence of groups, trends, and mass psychology. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2010, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/childfree-is-anti-natalism-and-anti-natalism-is-bigotry/523443/49 "2010-01-03T17:07:29Z")
I choose to defend the breeder-haters’ right to heap scorn on people and practices they don’t like. Or even people and practices they like, for that matter. Anyone who objects is a free-speech bigot. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2010, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/childfree-is-anti-natalism-and-anti-natalism-is-bigotry/523443/50 "2010-01-03T17:07:30Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > So you don’t think anyone is okay then? Because you, me, and everyone else is constantly under the influence of groups, trends, and mass psychology. LOL so true. But one can choose which groups influence them, at least to some degree. It’s amazing how hateful of humanity in general this is. We are all someone’s children. So to hate children is to hate the human race, basically. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2010, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/childfree-is-anti-natalism-and-anti-natalism-is-bigotry/523443/51 "2010-01-03T17:09:00Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > See how much of these people want to KILL children? It’s not so much they they want to KILL children, they just want them not be alive, any more. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2010, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/childfree-is-anti-natalism-and-anti-natalism-is-bigotry/523443/52 "2010-01-03T17:09:07Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > I choose to defend the breeder-haters’ right to heap scorn on people and practices they don’t like. Or even people and practices they like, for that matter. > > Anyone who objects is a free-speech bigot. That’s right nigger-spic-faggot. But I bet the bigotted kikes in the moderating staff are gonna go all protocols of zion on me and shut me up in this post. > [@](#): > > It’s not so much they they want to KILL children, they just want them not be alive, any more. And as long as society at large recognizes that this is anti-social and not something to be respected as an alternative lifestyle, then that’s fine. If it’s just about not having kids how come I can go to any childfree forum and click two or three links on the first page and find someone wishing death on children? ---
**Author:** ![Katriona](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/katriona/32/113_2.png) [@Katriona](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Katriona)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2010, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/childfree-is-anti-natalism-and-anti-natalism-is-bigotry/523443/53 "2010-01-03T17:12:38Z")
> [@MeanOldLady](#): > > I guess I just don’t get the point of this thread, or where you’re going with this. What is the debate, or is this a rant you got worked up about because some mean people on the internet smack-talked babies? To me it sounds like sour grapes because in the other thread parenthood wasn’t being shown enough gratitude by all of us dam free-riders who aren’t doing our duty to society by popping out kids. (post 225). ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2010, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/childfree-is-anti-natalism-and-anti-natalism-is-bigotry/523443/54 "2010-01-03T17:17:36Z")
[http://www.thechildfreelife.com/forum/](http://www.thechildfreelife.com/forum/) This one is not so bad. It is actually a ray of light in a long stream of ugliness at childfree forums. But even there, their slogan is, “A safe haven in a baby-crazed world.” It’s still not just about meeting and hanging out with other people who don’t want kids. It’s still negatively referential to the rest of society who do. The idea that people want kids is considered some kind of insanity. I dunno, I live in New York where being childfree is not uncommon at all. It just doesn’t come up, it doesn’t matter here. No one gives a shit if you have kids or not. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2010, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/childfree-is-anti-natalism-and-anti-natalism-is-bigotry/523443/55 "2010-01-03T17:17:52Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > That’s right nigger-spic-faggot. But I bet the bigotted kikes in the moderating staff are gonna go all protocols of zion on me and shut me up in this post. In all honesty, a warning wouldn’t surprise me at all. Anyway, somebody out there is bigoted against something you are or something you practice, and they use less-than-polite terminology in the process. Get over it. > [@](#): > > If it’s just about not having kids how come I can go to any childfree forum and click two or three links on the first page and find someone wishing death on children? And how many clicks does it take to get to the _Family Guy_ references? I reiterate my “get over it” policy. ---
**Author:** ![Palo\_Verde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/65b543/32.png) [@Palo\_Verde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Palo_Verde)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2010, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/childfree-is-anti-natalism-and-anti-natalism-is-bigotry/523443/56 "2010-01-03T17:17:56Z")
We notice the visible and obnoxious. That’s true of both groups. People without children notice and comment on the screaming brats in restaurants because they have no reason to notice the ones who are removed before they get whiny, or the ones who are eating quietly. People with children notice the childless by choice people who post obnoxious creeds on the internet but don’t notice the ones who have no children but don’t mind those who do. Because they aren’t passionate enough to start websites about, “I’m childfree, but I don’t mind if you aren’t” Just because the noxious ones of all types make the most noise doesn’t mean they are the only types who exist. Childless… childfree… (shrug) whatever term you wish to be called… Palo Verde (mother of 4) ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2010, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/childfree-is-anti-natalism-and-anti-natalism-is-bigotry/523443/57 "2010-01-03T17:20:14Z")
> [@Katriona](#): > > To me it sounds like sour grapes because in the other thread parenthood wasn’t being shown enough gratitude by all of us dam free-riders who aren’t doing our duty to society by popping out kids. (post 225). Actually that’s true. I think you should have some respect for human life, and the necessary role that parenthood plays in the propagation of human life. I think it’s at the core of basic decency. You can dismiss it as sour grapes, but I think it’s important. The childfree want respect and yet all they have in return is profound disrespect. It’s not ok for me to call you ‘childless’ but it’s ok for you to say any number of hateful things about parents. It’s a one way street. You want respect but reserve the right to spread hate. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2010, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/childfree-is-anti-natalism-and-anti-natalism-is-bigotry/523443/58 "2010-01-03T17:28:10Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > It’s a one way street. You want respect but reserve the right to spread hate. Isn’t that true of just about every social group in all of human history? ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2010, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/childfree-is-anti-natalism-and-anti-natalism-is-bigotry/523443/59 "2010-01-03T17:33:10Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Isn’t that true of just about every social group in all of human history? No, I don’t think so. But maybe. There used to be a notion of common decency, but people decided that because there was racism at the time people held such ideas as common decency that it’s not ok to target particular subgroups, but it’s perfectly ok to spew hatred in every general direction. The same people spewing hatred of children would be appalled at racism or homophobia. ---
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2010, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/childfree-is-anti-natalism-and-anti-natalism-is-bigotry/523443/60 "2010-01-03T17:34:15Z")
I’d have more respect for the propagaters of humanity if I felt like only the right people were doing the propagating. And I love kids! My nieces and nephews are a blast. I may even have a couple some day. But raising children doesn’t make you a goddamned hero. If you’re a guy and you knock up the first broad who so much as gives you a handjob, I think that makes you kind of a schmuck. And why does it seem like the women who are most willing to pollute the earth by having way more children than is necessary tend to be ignorant sows? You don’t see intelligent and considerate women pumping out 5 kids. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/childfree-is-anti-natalism-and-anti-natalism-is-bigotry/523443.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/childfree-is-anti-natalism-and-anti-natalism-is-bigotry/523443.md?page=4)