# Childfree is anti-natalism and anti-natalism is bigotry **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 2, 2010, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/childfree-is-anti-natalism-and-anti-natalism-is-bigotry/523443 "2010-01-02T22:53:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2010, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/childfree-is-anti-natalism-and-anti-natalism-is-bigotry/523443/61 "2010-01-03T17:34:23Z")
I understand child-free people sometimes litter. Fuck those guys! ---
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2010, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/childfree-is-anti-natalism-and-anti-natalism-is-bigotry/523443/62 "2010-01-03T17:35:32Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > I understand child-free people sometimes litter. Fuck those guys! Better than producing a litter. ---
**Author:** ![MeanOldLady](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/meanoldlady/32/10737_2.png) [@MeanOldLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MeanOldLady)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2010, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/childfree-is-anti-natalism-and-anti-natalism-is-bigotry/523443/63 "2010-01-03T17:35:59Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Why are you defending this hateful shit? Calm. Down. I am asking you why you fear the world will be overtaken by people who won’t reproduce, leaving us in sort of a “Children of Men” scenario. That is not going to happen. > [@](#): > > You are treating it as though it’s valid. it is valid to not want children. > [@](#): > > The proof is in the pudding. People are defending a hateful ideology. What? Who is doing that? > [@](#): > > I don’t think that all ‘childfree’ people are this hateful, but the proof is in the pudding. So why do you keep _saying_ they are? Are they or aren’t they? > [@](#): > > Just go on childfree forums and you see post after post about how much they hate parents and children. So you are basing your beliefs about childfree people off crazies on the internet? > [@](#): > > I see on this particular forum epithets like ‘Breeder’ and ‘Cult of the Child’ thrown around. Don’t tell me that calling you, ‘childless’, is insulting when you’re going to walk around calling Mothers ‘Moos’. Uhh, okay, fair enough. I won’t call mothers “moos.” Never have. I’m not even going to continue here. You’re just ranting. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2010, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/childfree-is-anti-natalism-and-anti-natalism-is-bigotry/523443/64 "2010-01-03T17:42:33Z")
> [@MeanOldLady](#): > > Calm. Down. I am asking you why you fear the world will be overtaken by people who won’t reproduce, leaving us in sort of a “Children of Men” scenario. That is not going to happen. I’m not. I’m just annoyed that this sort of thing isn’t being universally condemned. If people in here came in and said, “I am childfree and that kind of shit appalls me.”, it would be one thing, but that’s not what’s going on. They are coming in and insulting me and talking about how they are oppressed by correct syntax. > [@](#): > > it is valid to not want children. Of course it is. No one has argued otherwise. > [@](#): > > What? Who is doing that? > So why do you keep _saying_ they are? Are they or aren’t they? I am saying that the primary mode of discourse among the childfree community is hateful. I am sure as individuals there are plenty of people who use the term ‘childfree’ who are not hateful. Though as this thread proves there’s a lot of winking and nudging going on. I haven’t heard anyone defending the childfree expressing how disgusted by that behavior they are. Many parents have come out and said that it sucks that they are abused by other parents, but the childfree here are silent about those who wish death on children. No, it’s me who is hurting their feewings. > [@](#): > > So you are basing your beliefs about childfree people off crazies on the internet? I’m basing my beliefs about the basic transmissions of a subculture. Hippies present a certain image, stock brokers present a certain image. This is the image that the childfree choose to present. And you don’t see people coming out and condemning the terms, ‘moos’, ‘breeders’, or ‘cult of the child’. But they are up in arms about proper English syntax. > [@](#): > > Uhh, okay, fair enough. I won’t call mothers “moos.” Never have. Glad to hear it. > [@](#): > > I’m not even going to continue here. You’re just ranting. _shrugs_ Whatever. It’s about a decline in civility. Pure and simple. This sort of incivility should not be given credence. If you can’t actually think about the topic without making it an _ad hominem_ about me, that’s not my problem. To me the word childfree connotes a hatred of breeding, and not the simple choice not to. If people really want to self-apply that term, then fine, let them take the baggage on. It’s all good. ---
**Author:** ![Katriona](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/katriona/32/113_2.png) [@Katriona](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Katriona)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2010, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/childfree-is-anti-natalism-and-anti-natalism-is-bigotry/523443/65 "2010-01-03T17:50:42Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Actually that’s true. > > I think you should have some respect for human life, and the necessary role that parenthood plays in the propagation of human life. I think it’s at the core of basic decency. > > You can dismiss it as sour grapes, but I think it’s important. The childfree want respect and yet all they have in return is profound disrespect. > > It’s not ok for me to call you ‘childless’ but it’s ok for you to say any number of hateful things about parents. > > It’s a one way street. You want respect but reserve the right to spread hate. And in the other thread you snarked on Cat Whisper’s joke about genuflecting to another poster’s comment as “cult behavior,” but that’s pretty much what you want. Got it. Tells me all I need to know, so I’m done here. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2010, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/childfree-is-anti-natalism-and-anti-natalism-is-bigotry/523443/66 "2010-01-03T17:55:16Z")
> [@Katriona](#): > > And in the other thread you snarked on Cat Whisper’s joke about genuflecting to another poster’s comment as “cult behavior,” but that’s pretty much what you want. Got it. Tells me all I need to know, so I’m done here. Because the comment about genuflecting was a bigotted remark. It’s the perfect illustration. Thank you for bringing it up. What she was saying was, “hahahaha your mean-spirited joke was funny!”, all the while asking for respect. Genuflecting is code for contempt for anyone who recognizes the importance of breeding in the continuation of the species. Anyone who views the child-bearing process with reverence is ‘genuflecting’. The basic implication is that there is something wrong and cultish about actually taking the continuation of the species seriously. Why do you think I have some obligation to accept generalized epithets against me and people like me, but I have a responsibility to not use English syntax correctly? ---
**Author:** ![LavenderBlue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e95f7d/32.png) [@LavenderBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LavenderBlue)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2010, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/childfree-is-anti-natalism-and-anti-natalism-is-bigotry/523443/67 "2010-01-03T18:13:24Z")
> [@MOIDALIZE](#): > > I’d have more respect for the propagaters of humanity if I felt like only the right people were doing the propagating. > > And I love kids! My nieces and nephews are a blast. I may even have a couple some day. But raising children doesn’t make you a goddamned hero. If you’re a guy and you knock up the first broad who so much as gives you a handjob, I think that makes you kind of a schmuck. And why does it seem like the women who are most willing to pollute the earth by having way more children than is necessary tend to be ignorant sows? You don’t see intelligent and considerate women pumping out 5 kids. Yeah. The Duggars and their decision to have nineteen smug, barely educated, sexist religious fanatics doesn’t exactly thrill me. You’re not some sort of hero because you had children. I’ve personally see far more bigotry directed against those who don’t have children than against those who do. The real problem isn’t that people hate kids necessarily. The real problem is that American society doesn’t exactly make it easy to have them or raise them properly. But that’s another thread. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2010, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/childfree-is-anti-natalism-and-anti-natalism-is-bigotry/523443/68 "2010-01-03T18:15:24Z")
> [@LavenderBlue](#): > > Yeah. > > The Duggars and their decision to have nineteen smug, barely educated, sexist religious fanatics doesn’t exactly thrill me. Expresses bigotry. > [@](#): > > You’re not some sort of hero because you had children. > > I’ve personally see far more bigotry directed against those who don’t have children than against those who do. Claims others are bigots. > [@](#): > > The real problem isn’t that people hate kids necessarily. The real problem is that American society doesn’t exactly make it easy to have them or raise them properly. > > But that’s another thread. American society doesn’t make it easy to have them or raise them properly? I’m sorry, but this is such a fucking ignorant thing to say. America makes it about as easy as it has ever been in history. Raising kids properly isn’t easy. That’s not some fault of America. That’s just the way it is. ---
**Author:** ![garygnu](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/garygnu/32/2924_2.png) [@garygnu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/garygnu)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2010, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/childfree-is-anti-natalism-and-anti-natalism-is-bigotry/523443/69 "2010-01-03T18:17:41Z")
What you’re seeing is really just [John Gabriel’s Greater Internet Fuckwad Theory](http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2004/03/19/) applied to one group of people. You’re also lumping the stupid zealots in with those who are merely annoyed by subconsciously self-righteous parents. (My views may be colored by my apparently unusual ability to _completely_ ignore crying and screaming children in public.) ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2010, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/childfree-is-anti-natalism-and-anti-natalism-is-bigotry/523443/70 "2010-01-03T18:20:10Z")
> [@garygnu](#): > > What you’re seeing is really just [John Gabriel’s Greater Internet Fuckwad Theory](http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2004/03/19/) applied to one group of people. You’re also lumping the stupid zealots in with those who are merely annoyed by subconsciously self-righteous parents. > > (My views may be colored by my apparently unusual ability to _completely_ ignore crying and screaming children in public.) I’m not judging everyone who chooses not to have children. I am pointing out that there is a level of bigotry that is becoming acceptable discourse and I don’t think it should be. All due respect to the greater internet fuckwad theory, but it’s not really the bigots that bother me, it’s that no one is speaking out against the bigots. Hell even people who seem pretty congenial like **Cat Whisperer** are congratulating people in public threads in GD on their bigotted jokes. Casually using epithets like genuflecting. I think that parents should respect the decision of people not to have children, but I also think that the people who choose not to have children should have some fucking respect for the next generation who will be the ones changing their diapers in a nursing home. Or should we just say that the childfree in the nursing homes are a waste of medical resources? ---
**Author:** ![Palo\_Verde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/65b543/32.png) [@Palo\_Verde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Palo_Verde)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2010, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/childfree-is-anti-natalism-and-anti-natalism-is-bigotry/523443/71 "2010-01-03T18:21:34Z")
> [@MOIDALIZE](#): > > I’d have more respect for the propagaters of humanity if I felt like only the right people were doing the propagating. > > And I love kids! My nieces and nephews are a blast. I may even have a couple some day. But raising children doesn’t make you a goddamned hero. If you’re a guy and you knock up the first broad who so much as gives you a handjob, I think that makes you kind of a schmuck. And why does it seem like the women who are most willing to pollute the earth by having way more children than is necessary tend to be ignorant sows? You don’t see intelligent and considerate women pumping out 5 kids. I’m intelligent, at least I think so, I have a Master’s degree and I’ve been a Doper for 8 years… what else do you want? My husband has a PhD who is a professor of Biomedical Engineering at a major research institution. I think we’re considerate. How can I prove that? We adopted a dog and two cats from the pound? We donate money to several environmental charities. I do a bunch of volunteer work. I pumped out 5 kids (although we only have 4 now) and we have been looking into fostering one or two more. So it happens. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2010, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/childfree-is-anti-natalism-and-anti-natalism-is-bigotry/523443/72 "2010-01-03T18:26:31Z")
I think the childfree in their rants, such as the one by **Moidalize** above, answer their own questions. Why do ignorant sows pump out lots of kids? Because stupid and ignorant people make stupid and ignorant decisions. But the fact that you choose to see this as reflecting on breeding in general is where the problem is. If your problem is with ignorance, then fine. But that’s not how it’s expressed, it’s expressed as vitriole toward EVERYONE who breeds. ---
**Author:** ![drpepper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/8baadc/32.png) [@drpepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drpepper)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2010, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/childfree-is-anti-natalism-and-anti-natalism-is-bigotry/523443/73 "2010-01-03T19:10:40Z")
I don’t get what you want here, either. Your thesis here is scattered, selective, one-sided, and apparently based on some ignorant, hateful comments you read (and appear to be obsessed with) on some other message board full of people who are, unsurprisingly, ignorant and hateful. Then you want to somehow impute bigoted motivations to people here who don’t take time out of their day to go over to that stupid message board, read through it to find examples of hateful comments, then come back here and rant about how these people are ignorant and hateful. Apparently you also think that these self-same people pose a threat to the free world. To further conflate your bizarre philosophies, you throw this into the mixture: > [@](#): > > I think that parents should respect the decision of people not to have children, but I also think that the people who choose not to have children should have some fucking respect for the next generation who will be the ones changing their diapers in a nursing home. > > Or should we just say that the childfree in the nursing homes are a waste of medical resources? Dude, WTF? Where the hell are you going with all this? I think you should take a deep breath and just step away from this issue for awhile; you’re really stirring up shit that just isn’t there. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2010, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/childfree-is-anti-natalism-and-anti-natalism-is-bigotry/523443/74 "2010-01-03T19:17:27Z")
> [@drpepper](#): > > I don’t get what you want here, either. Your thesis here is scattered, selective, one-sided, and apparently based on some ignorant, hateful comments you read (and appear to be obsessed with) on some other message board full of people who are, unsurprisingly, ignorant and hateful. Then you want to somehow impute bigoted motivations to people here who don’t take time out of their day to go over to that stupid message board, read through it to find examples of hateful comments, then come back here and rant about how these people are ignorant and hateful. Apparently you also think that these self-same people pose a threat to the free world. No actually, it was based on bigotted, ignorant and hateful comments on THIS message board. I just went out to childfree forums and with practically no effort at all found many, many, many supporting cites for open bigotry. If you don’t want to take the time to engage in the argument why did you bother to respond at all. Either debate or don’t. > [@](#): > > To further conflate your bizarre philosophies, you throw this into the mixture: And there is the problem right there, that you think it’s a bizarre philosophy to recognize that you wouldn’t be alive if it were not for a ‘breeder’. > [@](#): > > Dude, WTF? Where the hell are you going with all this? Just pointing out the obvious. > [@](#): > > I think you should take a deep breath and just step away from this issue for awhile; you’re really stirring up shit that just isn’t there. Except it is. Read the thread and participate or don’t. I have cited many sources. no one has even addressed them. They are trying to make it personal about me. If _ad hominem_ is the way you want to go about this, then fine. As of yet no one has really addressed my argument, they’ve addressed me. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2010, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/childfree-is-anti-natalism-and-anti-natalism-is-bigotry/523443/75 "2010-01-03T19:53:52Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > What nonsense. Like when you were claiming that the only reason people have kids is because they recognize it’s their duty to Society. > [@mswas](#): > > Straw man. Never said that. Post #206. [This thread.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=544295&page=5) > [@mswas](#): > > Children are produced to further society, by definition. That is precisely why children are produced. There is no other reason. I understand why you don’t remember saying that. When spouting such a volume of drivel, it must be hard to keep it all straight. **mswas** is so insistent on the fact that since “childless” is in the dictionary, it must therefore automatically be a neutral, non-pejorative term and anyone who says otherwise is wrong wrong wrong because, after all, _it’s in the dictionary_. Well, “childfree” is [in the dictionary](http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/child+free?qsrc=2446) too. _child⋅free  /ˈtʃaɪldˌfri/ –adjective having no children; childless, esp. by choice._ So there you go. It’s in the dictionary. Your rant is rendered pointless. Though it’s hard to believe **mswas** had any interest in intelligent debate, given as he is to comparing those who think differently to Stormfronters. > [@drpepper](#): > > I think ( **mswas** ) should take a deep breath and just step away from this issue for awhile; you’re really stirring up shit that just isn’t there. But that’s the **mswas** M.O. for posts. Take that away, and he’d have to shut up and then where would we be? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2010, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/childfree-is-anti-natalism-and-anti-natalism-is-bigotry/523443/76 "2010-01-03T19:56:13Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > As of yet no one has really addressed my argument Is your argument “some people are rude and that’s wrong” ? ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2010, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/childfree-is-anti-natalism-and-anti-natalism-is-bigotry/523443/77 "2010-01-03T19:59:05Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Is your argument “some people are rude and that’s wrong” ? No it’s that this form of bigotry is tolerated, but shouldn’t be. Childless is nowhere NEAR as offensive as ‘breeder’. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2010, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/childfree-is-anti-natalism-and-anti-natalism-is-bigotry/523443/78 "2010-01-03T20:02:23Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > Post #206. [This thread.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=544295&page=5)I understand why you don’t remember saying that. When spouting such a volume of drivel, it must be hard to keep it all straight. No I don’t remember saying it because I didn’t say it. You are twisting my words knowingly and willfully so that they mean something other than what I said. I did post in that thread, I did say that people should have respect for life, parenthood and the humanity of children. But I didn’t say what you said I said. You know that you made that up willfully and intentionally. > [@](#): > > **mswas** is so insistent on the fact that since “childless” is in the dictionary, it must therefore automatically be a neutral, non-pejorative term and anyone who says otherwise is wrong wrong wrong because, after all, _it’s in the dictionary_. I am saying it’s just a word. > [@](#): > > Well, “childfree” is [in the dictionary](http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/child+free?qsrc=2446) too. > > _child⋅free  /ˈtʃaɪldˌfri/ > –adjective having no children; childless, esp. by choice._ Sure, and as you know it’s not the word that I have a problem with. You’re just trying to twist and distort things. > [@](#): > > So there you go. It’s in the dictionary. Your rant is rendered pointless. Except that’s not what my rant is about, as you know. > [@](#): > > Though it’s hard to believe **mswas** had any interest in intelligent debate, given as he is to comparing those who think differently to Stormfronters.But that’s the **mswas** M.O. for posts. Take that away, and he’d have to shut up and then where would we be? :dubious: Heh, you were the one using epithets in the other thread. Go head, gloss all you want, but you are the one who referred to ‘genuflecting’. Implying that having respect for parents is somehow something dishonorable. It’s not. But go ahead, make it about me. You know that the shoe fits. So you don’t actually argue with the discussion. The obfuscation of cowardice suits you. You just want the right to be a bigot, that’s all. ---
**Author:** ![BigBertha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/d78d45/32.png) [@BigBertha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigBertha)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2010, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/childfree-is-anti-natalism-and-anti-natalism-is-bigotry/523443/79 "2010-01-03T20:04:14Z")
I grew up without siblings, and never wanted children. If I could’ve gotten my tubes tied at 18, I would have. When people came to our house, my mother would introduce me, as this is Bertha, she hates kids! Well, one day I fell in love, and got married. I wanted my husbands child. Its natural, I feel IMO something is wrong with people who don’t. Sorry. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2010, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/childfree-is-anti-natalism-and-anti-natalism-is-bigotry/523443/80 "2010-01-03T20:05:22Z")
> [@BigBertha](#): > > I grew up without siblings, and never wanted children. If I could’ve gotten my tubes tied at 18, I would have. When people came to our house, my mother would introduce me, as this is Bertha, she hates kids! > Well, one day I fell in love, and got married. I wanted my husbands child. Its natural, I feel IMO something is wrong with people who don’t. Sorry. I wanted children too, but I disagree with you that there is something wrong with people who don’t want children. There is definitely something wrong with people who HATE children though. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/childfree-is-anti-natalism-and-anti-natalism-is-bigotry/523443.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/childfree-is-anti-natalism-and-anti-natalism-is-bigotry/523443.md?page=5)