# Childfree is anti-natalism and anti-natalism is bigotry **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 2, 2010, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/childfree-is-anti-natalism-and-anti-natalism-is-bigotry/523443 "2010-01-02T22:53:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2010, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/childfree-is-anti-natalism-and-anti-natalism-is-bigotry/523443/141 "2010-01-04T03:15:53Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > I look at it this way. If the child is feral and must be taught manners than it must be isolated from the rest of the society until those manners are instilled. This is what my family did. The child stays home and out of the way of other people until he or she is quiet and well-behaved enough to be brought in public. It works very well. It sounds like you had a unique situation that most people cannot replicate just be wanting to. You’re projecting those unique circumstances onto people who cannot emulate them. Kids learn to be social by interacting socially. If I were to isolate my child then she’d be a brat at 4 when I took her out of isolation. > [@](#): > > And it is actually very difficult to get away from children unless you have a considerable fortune. Apartment buildings and communities cannot discriminate against tenants with children unless they are specifically retirement communities. Resorts and entertainment facilities can try subtle means of getting people with children to stay away, but with the exception of adult orientated businesses, banning them outright isn’t easy because of people with children who insist on taking them places they don’t belong. I don’t see why getting away from children is something that should be respected. You could live rurally. There is wide debate on the issue of where children do and do not belong. You don’t take your kid to the nightclub, casino or titty bar, but childfree seem to have this sense of entitlement to avoiding children at restaurants. Children are people, they are not possessions, as such there is no reason to discriminate against them. If you go out to a restaurant in NYC at night though you’re not going to run into many kids, if any at all. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2010, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/childfree-is-anti-natalism-and-anti-natalism-is-bigotry/523443/142 "2010-01-04T03:16:23Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > Sure, it’s always the 5% that spill venom (on both sides of any issue), however I’d say that a majority of the observers are closer to the “having kids r teh sux0r” side. In any situation, the loud opponents will tend to outnumber the loud proponents. My guess would be that when these erupt, most live-and-let live folks, on both sides, are going to see the nastiness and simply close the thread. There are a lot of child rearing folks on the SDMB and I seriously doubt that we are going to be run off any time soon. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2010, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/childfree-is-anti-natalism-and-anti-natalism-is-bigotry/523443/143 "2010-01-04T03:23:31Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > I’m left-handed and childfree. Didn’t Portia Nelson sing this in “The Sound Of Music”? ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2010, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/childfree-is-anti-natalism-and-anti-natalism-is-bigotry/523443/144 "2010-01-04T03:26:05Z")
> [@in\_hiding](#): > > That’s why I wrote “I have respect for the way they raised me, for the values they have and all, but respect for the decision itself?”. Sure I’m happy to be here. Sure I respect parents who do good things for the good things they do. For the responsibility the take. And so on. But for the **decision to have children itself**? No. The have children **because they want to**. No other reason. And don’t get me wrong, there is absolutely **nothing** wrong with that, neither their motivation nor the act itself. But I won’t create a mystical ideal that this is bigger than it actually is. But this is a straw man creation of the childfree. No one is asking for respect for the mere fact of having kids. At least no one I have ever known. But you SHOULD respect people by default until they prove themselves unworthy of that respect. Just my opinion. If I met you I would not question your decision not to have kids. And I might tell an anecdote about my children. I don’t think I should be uncomfortable talking about my kids, but I like to think I am socially astute enough that I can tell when people are uninterested in what I have to say. (mostly) But in the cases of where I’m not that socially astute, I don’t think it should reflect on the fact that I have kids. I am not socially inept because I have kids after all. > [@](#): > > Still, the fact they chose to have children in the first place is nothing special. Nothing sacred. They wanted to, and they got me. And that’s okay. But that’s it. They did it well, and _that’s_ what I respect them for. Well I think human life is sacred. The decision to create it might not always be a sacred act, but it can and should be. > [@](#): > > First of all, no overpopulation from me. Yeah, that’s a bit flat, at least in the western modern world. The selfless thing… Right. Overpopulation comes up in these discussions a lot. And I respect someone concerned about overpopulation IF they also make a radical effort to curtail their own consumption, because in the west we overconsume. It’s in the third world where people overpopulate. > [@](#): > > I don’t know, maybe I’m running into the edge of my vocabulary here, but … There is “to respect somebodies decision”, as in “so you want kids, great, good luck!”, in the way of acknowledgement for a decision that you might have done in a different way, but can see the other’s point. Right. When I say respect, I don’t mean accolades, I mean common courtesy. > [@](#): > > And there is “to have respect for somebody” in the way of an acknowledgement of something extraordinary. “Wow, he really went into the burning house again!”. Yea, exactly. That’s not the respect I am talking about. I am talking about more, “I respect your shared humanity with compassion.” > [@](#): > > In this sense, I of course respect your decision to have children, but I don’t have any special respect for it because that would require something extraordinary (do it really well, for example, or in difficult circumstances, and I’ll have respect for that). Sure, it’s a lot of responsibility, it’s not easy, but in the end you **want it**. So you have it. And that’s your decision, and that’s fine. Yea, that’s about how I see it. And I hope you are spending more time enjoying the freedom your choice affords you rather than lamenting whether or not some parent validates that choice. > [@](#): > > So yes, I respect your choice, I expect you to respect mine (whatever it is, actually, I’m not so sure yet), and I can’t understand for the life of me why you can’t just be polite about the whole less/free thing. I CAN be polite. I’m choosing not to be in order to make a point. If this were not a debating forum I wouldn’t press you on your decision, but as it is, and you chose to click the link, then we can argue. The rules of being polite are different in a debate than they are in every day interaction. > [@](#): > > Exactly. Can we agree on that? “We” call you how you would liked to be called, and you do the same? That’s all I wanted to get to. Yes, I agree. That’s the point I’m making too. If you want me to call you childfree then don’t be a dick about your childfree status. Don’t wink and nudge. This all started basically because someone got all butthurt when someone mentioned that the childfree issue created a ‘freerider’ problem. That person was unable to look at it philosophically and then started just spewing epithets. But the freerider problem is applicable, because if you don’t have kids you’ll need my kids or someone else’s kids to wipe your ass at the nursing home when you are old. Just as my kids participate in the tragedy of the commons by using up communal resources. Talking about the freerider problem is no more insulting than talking about the tragedy of the commons problem. It’s just that the respect that was assumed went only one way. This particular poster was able to talk about environmental degradation due to population, but it wasn’t ok to talk about the freerider problem without him and a couple of groupies going apeshit and getting nasty. ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2010, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/childfree-is-anti-natalism-and-anti-natalism-is-bigotry/523443/145 "2010-01-04T03:26:29Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > There are a lot of child rearing folks on the SDMB and I seriously doubt that we are going to be run off any time soon. Quite. I expect a godless America long before I expect a childless America. The “cult of child” haters are not a movement and have no political power. It’d be more productive to freak out about the immorality of 4chan than any childfree board. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2010, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/childfree-is-anti-natalism-and-anti-natalism-is-bigotry/523443/146 "2010-01-04T03:29:09Z")
> [@Bosstone](#): > > Quite. I expect a godless America long before I expect a childless America. > > The “cult of child” haters are not a movement and have no political power. It’d be more productive to freak out about the immorality of 4chan than any childfree board. Starting one thread on a message board is not exactly, ‘freaking out’. I think people ascribe a lot more importance to a message board than is warranted. I’m not writing letters to my senator, I am talking about a minor issue in my life that I think is worth discussing. ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2010, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/childfree-is-anti-natalism-and-anti-natalism-is-bigotry/523443/147 "2010-01-04T03:35:12Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Starting one thread on a message board is not exactly, ‘freaking out’. I think people ascribe a lot more importance to a message board than is warranted. I’m not writing letters to my senator, I am talking about a minor issue in my life that I think is worth discussing. Says the person who wants to condemn it under the bigotry label. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2010, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/childfree-is-anti-natalism-and-anti-natalism-is-bigotry/523443/148 "2010-01-04T03:40:27Z")
> [@Bosstone](#): > > Says the person who wants to condemn it under the bigotry label. _shrugs_ It’s bigotry. Doesn’t mean I’m sitting here having convulsions of apoplexy. 😉 Try and put things into perspective, your perspective is a bit off. ---
**Author:** ![in\_hiding](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c5a1d2/32.png) [@in\_hiding](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/in_hiding)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2010, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/childfree-is-anti-natalism-and-anti-natalism-is-bigotry/523443/149 "2010-01-04T03:50:39Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > But this is a straw man creation of the childfree. No one is asking for respect for the mere fact of having kids. At least no one I have ever known. But you SHOULD respect people by default until they prove themselves unworthy of that respect. But really, what’s the difference then? If they do well I’ll give my respect allright. > [@](#): > > Yes, I agree. That’s the point I’m making too. If you want me to call you childfree then don’t be a dick about your childfree status. Don’t wink and nudge. Well, that’s obvious. But people will always do things like this, on all sides - there are lots of opinions as well that state childfree or -less or whatever people are worthless. Ah well. I’ll haul my childless, godless self to a eventless, dreamless sleep now. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2010, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/childfree-is-anti-natalism-and-anti-natalism-is-bigotry/523443/150 "2010-01-04T04:38:13Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > A completely and wholly irrational belief in persecution used to justify the hatred of a group. Wow! You perfectly paraphrased your own OP! ---
**Author:** ![garygnu](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/garygnu/32/2924_2.png) [@garygnu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/garygnu)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2010, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/childfree-is-anti-natalism-and-anti-natalism-is-bigotry/523443/151 "2010-01-04T05:03:53Z")
Remind me again why I should automatically respect the child of a stranger? ---
**Author:** ![suranyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2010, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/childfree-is-anti-natalism-and-anti-natalism-is-bigotry/523443/152 "2010-01-04T18:40:06Z")
I’m a little confused by the OP’s point as well, although in general I do agree with him that the hard-core childfree are hateful. I don’t know about “bigot”. But I think that someone who calls a person whom they’ve never met and don’t know anything about a “crotch turd” has a screw loose somewhere. That’s a common slur on the childfree boards. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2010, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/childfree-is-anti-natalism-and-anti-natalism-is-bigotry/523443/153 "2010-01-04T18:52:17Z")
[quote=“mswas, post:141, topic:523443”] It sounds like you had a unique situation that most people cannot replicate just be wanting to. You’re projecting those unique circumstances onto people who cannot emulate them. Kids learn to be social by interacting socially. If I were to isolate my child then she’d be a brat at 4 when I took her out of isolation.QUOTE] Thousands of children (if not millions when one considers the span of human generations) have been raised the way I was. If people want to emulate a situation they will certainly put considerable effort into doing so. And who said I was isolated. I lived in a house with a dozen or more people at any given time. It’s about teaching children to behave and if they can’t removing them from bothering others until they can behave. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2010, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/childfree-is-anti-natalism-and-anti-natalism-is-bigotry/523443/154 "2010-01-04T19:01:26Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > I don’t see why getting away from children is something that should be respected. You could live rurally. There is wide debate on the issue of where children do and do not belong. You don’t take your kid to the nightclub, casino or titty bar, but childfree seem to have this sense of entitlement to avoiding children at restaurants. Children are people, they are not possessions, as such there is no reason to discriminate against them. If you go out to a restaurant in NYC at night though you’re not going to run into many kids, if any at all. Really, you would perfer people that don’t like children hang around them will they will only be aggravated and eventually enraged by their annoying behavior. That’s a receipe for disaster. I don’t like being around children other than those of my extended family and friends from the same culture and avoid them for the same reasons I avoid heavy metal concerts, monster truck rallies, and Rush Limbaugh conventions. As for treating children like people and not discriminating against them most childfree people would like nothing more for children to be treated as people and subject to the same rules of behavior. If an adult would be asked (or ordered) to leave a restaurant, theater, concert for screaming and crying, so should a child. As senior citizens cannot change their Depends in public and someone who makes the mistake of urinating by the side of the road could end up on a sex offender registry, I see no reason an infant should be changed anywhere other than a restroom. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2010, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/childfree-is-anti-natalism-and-anti-natalism-is-bigotry/523443/155 "2010-01-04T19:07:31Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > In any situation, the loud opponents will tend to outnumber the loud proponents. My guess would be that when these erupt, most live-and-let live folks, on both sides, are going to see the nastiness and simply close the thread. There are a lot of child rearing folks on the SDMB and I seriously doubt that we are going to be run off any time soon. They are not going to be “run off”, but the consensus on this board on the matter of children is close to as strong as its consensus on religion and US politics: the majority lean a certain way and the loudest voices are the extreme in one direction. The difference being the sheer oddity of being against, well, parenting and children. Our species would do very well (even if be very uniform and thus somewhat boring) if everyone was an Atheist and a Democrat. It does not rely for its very existance on _some_ people being religious Republicans, thankfully. ---
**Author:** ![CrazyCatLady](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/dfb087/32.png) [@CrazyCatLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CrazyCatLady)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2010, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/childfree-is-anti-natalism-and-anti-natalism-is-bigotry/523443/156 "2010-01-04T19:08:47Z")
What you have to keep in mind about childfree boards is that they’re a place for people to blow off steam. It is considered unacceptable to eviscerate some smarmy twit who insults you, your desires, and your marriage like this: > [@BigBertha](#): > > I wanted my husbands child. Its natural, I feel IMO something is wrong with people who don’t. Sorry. and this: > [@BigBertha](#): > > I do feel I am not out of them norm; how can you find the love of your life and not want to have their child? Tis all. We don’t have a public outlet where it’s acceptable to tell people like this what we think of their disrespect–if we tell them off, we’re being “oversensitive” and need to go take our “DINK asses” somewhere else and chill the hell out. And I’m not just talking about the actual twits responding that way. I don’t think you appreciate how frustrating a situation it is to just have to sit and take that sort of insult because expressing your offense garners you even more insult. So people hold it in till they get to a “safe” place where people won’t rag on them for being pissed about being ragged on, and like any other pent-up frustration it tends to fester a bit. As such, you can’t take the commentary on those boards as truly indicative of people’s general attitudes, any more than you can take someone calling their spouse a fucking asshole right after a fight as being truly indicative of the general state of their marriage. And let’s just get back to this “why should I respect your lifestyle when you don’t respect mine” thing for a moment. **Big Bertha** and her ilk _clearly_ don’t respect my lifestyle. By your own logic, why should I respect hers? It’s a vicious circle, innit? ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2010, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/childfree-is-anti-natalism-and-anti-natalism-is-bigotry/523443/157 "2010-01-04T19:09:01Z")
> [@garygnu](#): > > Remind me again why I should automatically respect the child of a stranger? Why should one automatically respect a stranger? In my opinion, reciprocity. One should respect others, because one expects respect oneself. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2010, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/childfree-is-anti-natalism-and-anti-natalism-is-bigotry/523443/158 "2010-01-04T19:16:59Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > As for treating children like people and not discriminating against them most childfree people would like nothing more for children to be treated as people and subject to the same rules of behavior. Children should not be held to the same standards as adults, for the simple reason than children - particularly very young children - are not capable of achieving these standards. Offering children a certain amount of lattitude is again a variety of reciprocity. As very young children, we were all ourselves offered the same lattitude. If you think you never cried in public as a baby yourself - chances are you are simply mistaken. This does not mean that children have a free ticket to engage in public destructive disobedience (or worse, that parents have a licence to allow the same). Respect goes both ways, as it should. Parents should be doing their best to educate and discipline their children; the lattitude extended by others doesn’t extend to wilfully rejecting a proper parental role. But holding children to the same standards of public behaviour as adults is quite unrealistic. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2010, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/childfree-is-anti-natalism-and-anti-natalism-is-bigotry/523443/159 "2010-01-04T19:17:26Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > One should respect others, because one expects respect oneself. Well, maybe YOU expect respect. The problem with your argument is that it only works with popular people. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2010, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/childfree-is-anti-natalism-and-anti-natalism-is-bigotry/523443/160 "2010-01-04T19:24:03Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Well, maybe YOU expect respect. The problem with your argument is that it only works with popular people. That doesn’t follow at all. I _expect_ respect _as my right_, whether I’m “popular” or not. Just as my _right to respect_ as a person exists, even if I happen to be of a disfavoured minority. A child isn’t simply an appendage of a parent, and respecting that child isn’t a duty owed to the _parent_, but to the _child_. Why should you respect a stranger’s child? Because the stranger’s child is also a person, and persons are deserving, as of right, basic respect. A respect you have a right to demand for yourself from strangers. If strangers do not give you respect because you are “unpopular”, they are failing in their ethical duties; if you do not respect a stranger because they are a child, you are failing in yours. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/childfree-is-anti-natalism-and-anti-natalism-is-bigotry/523443.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/childfree-is-anti-natalism-and-anti-natalism-is-bigotry/523443.md?page=9)