# Childhood question II: origin and extent of the "shame, shame!" gesture? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [June 12, 2010, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/childhood-question-ii-origin-and-extent-of-the-shame-shame-gesture/542875 "2010-06-12T01:58:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2010, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/childhood-question-ii-origin-and-extent-of-the-shame-shame-gesture/542875/1 "2010-06-12T01:58:11Z")
How many of you are familiar with the “shame, shame!” gesture consisting of stroking the forefinger and middle finger of one hand (held together) crosswise on top of the same fingers of the other hand? Is there any research as to its geographical/social extent and its origin and significance? ---
**Author:** ![OldGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/3bc359/32.png) [@OldGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OldGuy)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2010, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/childhood-question-ii-origin-and-extent-of-the-shame-shame-gesture/542875/2 "2010-06-12T03:51:07Z")
I am, but it was just the one finger (forefinger) of each hand. Grew up outside of Cleveland Ohio in the 50s early 60s for geographical reference. ---
**Author:** ![Tethered\_Kite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a5b964/32.png) [@Tethered\_Kite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tethered_Kite)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2010, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/childhood-question-ii-origin-and-extent-of-the-shame-shame-gesture/542875/3 "2010-06-12T03:57:23Z")
Midwest here. Only used one finger on each hand. Only other thing to add was the implication of wiping something onto the other person. Casting shame on another is a considerably viable method of social control. Start 'em young! Edit: Well, it USED to be. ---
**Author:** ![Celyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9dc877/32.png) [@Celyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Celyn)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2010, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/childhood-question-ii-origin-and-extent-of-the-shame-shame-gesture/542875/4 "2010-06-12T04:09:02Z")
> [@matt\_mcl](#): > > How many of you are familiar with the “shame, shame!” gesture consisting of stroking the forefinger and middle finger of one hand (held together) crosswise on top of the same fingers of the other hand? > > Is there any research as to its geographical/social extent and its origin and significance? I have never encountered it, so its geographical spread might have missed out Britain. It seems inoffensive as described: do you get to add a scary sneering look to it? Or to do it in a threatening way? ---
**Author:** ![Kevbo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e47774/32.png) [@Kevbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kevbo)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2010, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/childhood-question-ii-origin-and-extent-of-the-shame-shame-gesture/542875/5 "2010-06-12T04:52:40Z")
My mom (born 1918) used to do the one finger of each hand version, while either tisk-tisking or saying “shame on you”. I never saw it elsewhere until I watched “Great Balls of Fire” the docu-drama about Jerry Lee Lewis. It was a bit of a revelation that this wasn’t unique to my mom. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2010, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/childhood-question-ii-origin-and-extent-of-the-shame-shame-gesture/542875/6 "2010-06-12T05:45:01Z")
> [@OldGuy](#): > > I am, but it was just the one finger (forefinger) of each hand. Grew up outside of Cleveland Ohio in the 50s early 60s for geographical reference. Ditto. ---
**Author:** ![elfkin477](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@elfkin477](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfkin477)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2010, 6:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/childhood-question-ii-origin-and-extent-of-the-shame-shame-gesture/542875/7 "2010-06-12T06:15:55Z")
> [@Celyn](#): > > It seems inoffensive as described: do you get to add a scary sneering look to it? Or to do it in a threatening way? Nah, a smirk maybe, but it’s usually done in jest when someone is caught doing something mildly naughty. I’ve never seen anyone truly get in trouble from the person who does it, anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2010, 11:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/childhood-question-ii-origin-and-extent-of-the-shame-shame-gesture/542875/8 "2010-06-12T11:03:46Z")
This has been asked a few times before, if you want to do a search. The most plausible explanation I’ve heard is that it is mimicking the wrist/hand slapping adults use on children when they reach for something they shouldn’t touch. For example, a child reaches for a cookie, the mother gently slaps the back of the hand and says “shame on you” or “tsk, tsk” or “bad boy” or something similar. something similar. The movements are very similar. It’s fairly easy to see how it would evolve form, say, a parent sitting across the room when a child starts to do something wrong, and mimicking the “slap on the back of the hand” motion rather than walking across the room and actually smacking the child. And from their it’s easy to see how it would be adopted a a general gesture of disapproval. ---
**Author:** ![Hyperelastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Hyperelastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hyperelastic)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2010, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/childhood-question-ii-origin-and-extent-of-the-shame-shame-gesture/542875/9 "2010-06-12T13:15:19Z")
I don’t know whether this has any significance, but I have heard this gesture referred to as “peeling the carrot”. We did it when I was a kid, in 1970s Ohio. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2010, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/childhood-question-ii-origin-and-extent-of-the-shame-shame-gesture/542875/10 "2010-06-12T13:59:58Z")
> [@Hyperelastic](#): > > I don’t know whether this has any significance, but I have heard this gesture referred to as “peeling the carrot”. That’s funny, I don’t think I’ve ever heard it called that but I’ve always thought of this gesture as “carrot-peeling” because that’s what it looks like! > [@Blake](#): > > The most plausible explanation I’ve heard is that it is mimicking the wrist/hand slapping adults use on children when they reach for something they shouldn’t touch. For example, a child reaches for a cookie, the mother gently slaps the back of the hand and says “shame on you” or “tsk, tsk” or “bad boy” or something similar. something similar. > > The movements are very similar. I wonder if you’re describing some other gesture, because the “carrot-peeling” shame gesture doesn’t look anything like a slap. ---
**Author:** ![elfkin477](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@elfkin477](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfkin477)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2010, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/childhood-question-ii-origin-and-extent-of-the-shame-shame-gesture/542875/11 "2010-06-12T17:42:02Z")
> [@Lamia](#): > > I wonder if you’re describing some other gesture, because the “carrot-peeling” shame gesture doesn’t look anything like a slap. Especially considering it only involves the fingers, not the back of the hand. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2010, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/childhood-question-ii-origin-and-extent-of-the-shame-shame-gesture/542875/12 "2010-06-12T23:04:20Z")
Now that I think of it, I seem to remember someone telling me the “carrot-peeling” shame gesture represented a broken cross. Although I didn’t and don’t think this sounded especially plausible, the gesture does bear some resemblance to the “Back, foul demon!” cross gesture. I don’t mean the Sign of the Cross, but making a cross by pointing the index finger of one hand up and crossing it with the index finger from the other hand, as if they’re candlesticks and you’re warding off Christopher Lee in a Hammer vampire flick. ---
**Author:** ![Tethered\_Kite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a5b964/32.png) [@Tethered\_Kite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tethered_Kite)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2010, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/childhood-question-ii-origin-and-extent-of-the-shame-shame-gesture/542875/13 "2010-06-13T15:28:35Z")
I’m not getting the hand-slapping similarity. But otherwise there are some interesting conjectures here. The idea of peeling a carrot to expose what’s underneath, or posibly to strip off the “dirty” part is thought-provoking, isn’t it? I’ll stick with the idea of wiping something unpleasant off onto someone else. We say "Shame _on_ you when we do this gesture. And anyone who has ever experienced public shame is painfully aware of how heavy we can wear that invisible condemnation. Made me just think of the old practice of actually tarring and feathering or branding as a method of making someone wear the consequences of their socially unfriendly behavior. It was done both to punish them and to alert others to their inclinations. The shaming gesture is more symbolic. As mentioned by elfkin, I think the finger -swiping has been commonly used by children and is generaly done in a playful manner. I see what you did and you are naughty. _Wink, wink._ ---
**Author:** ![robcaro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/df705f/32.png) [@robcaro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robcaro)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2010, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/childhood-question-ii-origin-and-extent-of-the-shame-shame-gesture/542875/14 "2010-06-13T15:32:52Z")
I was born in 1929 and remember when I was 3 - 4 years old, perhaps younger having my mom point one finger at me and move the finger on the other hand rubbing towards me and saying “shame on you.” This was in South Dakota. ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2010, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/childhood-question-ii-origin-and-extent-of-the-shame-shame-gesture/542875/15 "2010-06-13T15:37:05Z")
I had forgotten all about this! Early 70’s in Los Angeles. One finger on each hand. We would say, “chop chop” when we did it at someone. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2010, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/childhood-question-ii-origin-and-extent-of-the-shame-shame-gesture/542875/16 "2010-06-13T16:03:31Z")
It was a common gesture in LA in the 50s & early 60s when I was a kid. My parents from the Chicago area used it, as did many neighbor parents from all over. And it meant to apply shame, not just express disapproval. Parents almost always said “Shame on you!” while doing it. If a grown-up did it, they weren’t kidding. Naturally, kids mocking grown-ups did it all the time to each other for fun. I’ve always seen it using one finger on each hand; never two. This was a pretty secular area, but the parents’ generation had probably all grown up attending church, so a tie-in to some churchly symbolism isn’t unreasonable. I haven’t seen the gesture or heard the phrase in 25+ years. I don’t have kids, so I don’t have much exposure to current parenting & teacher behaviors. As I recall, the “chop chop” terminology came in in the late 60s / early 70s and was used much more by our generation on each other than by our parents. The meaning was still disapproval, but it wasn’t directly shaming. I remember thinking then that “chop chop” was part of the then-rapidly increasing Oriental influence in LA & the West at the time. “Chop chop” was also slang for “hurry up”, or “do it quickly”. e.g. Mom says “Wash your hands. Chop Chop! It’s time for dinner.” I have no clue if the two Chop chops are related or how. ---
**Author:** ![rowrrbazzle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rowrrbazzle/32/414_2.png) [@rowrrbazzle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rowrrbazzle)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2010, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/childhood-question-ii-origin-and-extent-of-the-shame-shame-gesture/542875/17 "2010-06-14T00:36:25Z")
The gesture in the movie “All That Jazz”: [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4VfOh8bli3Y#t=3m2s](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4VfOh8bli3Y#t=3m2s) ---
**Author:** ![CNiper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/977dab/32.png) [@CNiper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CNiper)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2016, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/childhood-question-ii-origin-and-extent-of-the-shame-shame-gesture/542875/18 "2016-09-22T19:57:50Z")
Hey guys, sorry to pull this topic out from 6 years ago, but it is one of the only results on Google that comes up when trying to find the origins of peeling the shame carrot. I’m compiling everything I find in this thread - [http://www.diplomunion.com/index.php?threads/peeling-the-shame-carrot.22778/](http://www.diplomunion.com/index.php?threads/peeling-the-shame-carrot.22778/) I’ve linked this thread to that thread, and hope to hear of more replies. Specifically I’m looking for anyone outside of the American midwest. For reference, I grew up in a small town North of Edmonton, Alberta. Cheers. ---
**Author:** ![flano1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/f14d63/32.png) [@flano1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flano1)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2016, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/childhood-question-ii-origin-and-extent-of-the-shame-shame-gesture/542875/19 "2016-09-22T21:45:35Z")
63 y.o. Australian male. Known all my life. One finger over the other. Still very commonly used across all demographics AFAIK. ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2016, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/childhood-question-ii-origin-and-extent-of-the-shame-shame-gesture/542875/20 "2016-09-22T23:16:36Z")
As a kid growing up in the Pacific Northwest part of the US in the 80s we would do one index finger sliding over the other with the rhyme, “Shame, shame, shame, I know your name…” done in a sing-song voice. Sometimes just abbreviated to “shame, shame, shame” alone. It was used when teasing someone about something embarrassing, always one kid to another. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/childhood-question-ii-origin-and-extent-of-the-shame-shame-gesture/542875.md?page=2)