Are you misunderstanding me? Your quote of what I said appeared to end in a way that takes it out of context, so, to be perfectly clear:
Either scenario is not plausible. Not before the study, and not after it. Because the “bad kids cause parents to use corporal punishment” theory doesn’t match how most parents actually make discipline decisions.
If I’ve misunderstood you perhaps you can clarify.
You said “That seems unlikely to me, since I think the decision to use corporal punishment has a lot more to do with parental philosophy than child behavior.” (emphasis added). My response was that you seem to be acknowledging that it has something to do with child behavior, but just that you think it has more to do with parental philosophy. And my point is that as long as it has anything to do with child behavior, then the study would be expected to show worse outcomes for kids who are spanked, even if it’s an effective tool (as long as it doesn’t completely account for the child behavior aspect). Therefore, that study is useless.
What do you disagree with here?
[ETA: even in your most recent post you still say “… how most parents actually make discipline decisions” (emphasis added). But as long as some parents make decisions that way, then the study would produce those results.]
Ah, ok.
My theory is that the behavior -> spanking causal link is weak (most parents don’t make discipline decisions that way), so any correlation that you can explain by it must also be weak.
A study that shows a strong correlation requires a stronger causal link to explain. The idea that people exposed to violence during their childhood have problems regardless of whether that violence was part of discipline or a pattern of abuse have issues provides one such explanation.
From a Bayesian perspective, the fact that some parents exist who might or might not spank their kids based on the kids behavior doesn’t render a study of a population that consists mostly of parents who do not make decisions in that way invalid or useless.
You haven’t established what level of strength would be required or what level of correlation was found in the study. Until you do that, you have nothing.
Even if you somehow succeed in doing that, you have very little. Because there’s also the genetic predisposition factor involved as well.
This is incorrect, again unless you have firm numbers on all these factors.
It’s not ridiculous at all. I never said anything about parents dealing with the police.
You obviously haven’t been paying attention to the news if you don’t think that not knowing how to deal with those who are mighty is not a matter of life or death.
And spanking and beating the snot out of people are two different things. Which I’m sure you know but using “beating the snot” is meant to elicit an emotional response that spanking does not.
Right now, there’s a debate going on on one of my Facebook pages regarding allegations of torture at a youth correctional facility. Some people are going, “Well, what do you expect from the ‘time out’ generation?” and I pointed out that it’s quite possible that some of the people who work(ed) there took those jobs precisely because they thought they could beat those kids out of trouble.
I was raised by a mother who believed that “discipline” was defined as visible injuries, and a father who did not. That’s worst, IMNSHO, than parents who are on the same page. 
I thought that’s what you might have meant, but I dismissed it. I’ve dealt with the police hundreds of times in my life, either as a suspect or a friend. What have I been missing in how I should deal with them that my dad kicking my ass would have solved? Or could there be another reason - a different overriding reason - why I shouldn’t have to worry about things like that with the police regardless of my upbringing? I suppose it could have something to do with the fact that I’m not black, but that would be too on the nose, wouldn’t it?
Oh goodness. Only black people are subject to police brutality? The point being we do live in a might makes right universe. I’m not saying that parents or other authorities should use unnecessary force but to deny that force is used if lines are crossed is not a bad lesson to learn.
I’m glad you are able to deal with society in a social manner. Not everyone shares that trait.
Is it, though?
There are parents to whom spanking is a last resort when everything else has failed and parents for whom it is the primary means of discipline. If spanking damaged children then it would be plausible that those in the second category would have worse outcomes.
Might makes right in parenting, but only in the sense that a parent’s last resort is to physical remove the child from whatever person or place or thing (s)he is misbehaving with.
People should not be learning that the police can shoot you as an adult because they have guns and you don’t. Apart from anything else, there are certain obvious collaries to that line of thinking (well, why don’t I get a gun too?) that are bad from a societal point of view.
My parents did not believe in corporal punishment (at least I assume they didn’t believe in it; we were never hit) and I grew up OK. I use cannabis, which makes me a criminal, though.
My kids were never hit and they’ve grown up to be better adults than I could ever aspire to be.
/Anecdotes
I’m such a parent. In theory, moderate spanking is OK, but the occasion never came up. They weren’t necessarily always little angels, but spanking was a last resort, and I never resorted to it. FWIW.
Regards,
Shodan
My aunt, who I think is the best parent in the world, used spanking very sparingly, when a kid did something so dangerous that there just wasn’t time to teach a lesson another way. I remember on time one of my cousins was about two, and managed to use a chair to climb up to the gas stove, where he poured water onto it. He got spanked for that, because he could have gotten really hurt, and if he was going to be doing stuff like that, my aunt wanted him to be scared to go near the stove.
That cousin was a particular handful his who childhood, and even he got spanked maybe five times in his life. One of my other cousins I don’t think ever got spanked at all. She spanked me once, and I’m not sure I remember the whole thing, but I think what I did was take the car out of gear after specifically being told not to touch the gear shift. The brake was on, so nothing happened, but if the brake hadn’t been on, or I’d managed to pull it out as well, I could have gotten really hurt.
My aunt raised four kids from scratch, one adopted kid from age 14, and me part-time, and has probably administered fewer than a dozen spankings all told.
All of us turned out pretty well. I don’t think any of us even has a speeding ticket.
So yes, it is possible for a parent to use a spanking very sparingly, and as a last resort.
That’s how we ended up using them with our son. He has been spanked twice in his life: once was for hitting the dog after being specifically told not to, and the other was for taking his seat belt off on the highway for the second time, after I had already pulled over once to rebuckle him. There’s a really hefty fine for having an unbelted child, not even going into how hurt he could get bopping around the car unbelted. He never did either of those things again. And regarding the dog, my husband thought that even though we had just about the most tolerant dog n the universe, not every dog was like that, and the boychik needed to learn INSTANTANEOUSLY that he is never to hit dogs, EVER. I agreed. He is almost 11 now, so we are done with spankings. I can’t imagine what an 11-year-old could do that couldn’t be dealt with some other way. Both of the other incidents happened when he was under three, and he was spanked on his diapered butt.
I think this is inconsistent with a position which maintains that other methods are every bit as effective as spanking. Because if that were the case, then you could use another just-as-effective method no matter how dangerous the activity was.
Which is not directed at you specifically. You could say “spanking can be the most effective method but it also has a downside so on balance it’s not worthwhile unless it’s a dangerous activity”. But there are people who do maintain that other methods are every bit as effective, and in that case I think there shouldn’t be exceptions for dangerous activities.
If a kid is little enough you don’t have to actually spank them. You can just tell them that they’re about to get a smack and after that the mildest touch will have the same effect - they will genuinely think they got spanked and feel just as punished.
Have any studies distinguished between spankings and beatings?
One of the reasons I think spanking is usually a bad idea is that it is hard to apply consistently. In any type of reinforcement or punishment, consistency is much more important than severity. Because spanking is unpleasant both for the parent and the child, the temptation as a parent is not to use it and the result of this is that it is only used when a parent is fed up with a behavior or in a bad mood. Thus the inconsistency of the punishment is what causes it not to be effective.
I don’t think you need consistency as to the specific type of discipline. As long you consistently apply some form of discipline, that counts as consistent for this purpose.
I do agree though that if the child perceives spanking specifically as “parent is in a bad mood” versus “parent feels what I did needs to be punished” then that’s a negative.
Certainly Kin Jr has managed to push a lot of my and Mrs Kin’s buttons, but no spankings have been delivered, nor are they likely to.
I was spanked when young, and severely, on occasion, including with long, metal belts. All it did was made me feel angry and resentful toward the spanker. It didn’t change my attitude or my actions much, except where the actions were dangerous, but usually in those cases it was the worry/fear of the person that made me go: Ok, that is dangerous I won’t do that again, rather than thinking I won’t stick the bunny ear antenna’s into the electric socket again because then I’ll get spanked.
Even when he makes me angry I can’t even fathom hitting him. How could I hit this little guy? Hell I spend every day worrying about him being hurt, how could I possibly be the one to purposefully hurt him? I’d have to be some type of monster.
Nope. Although I do see how it can be tempting. You figure, if you smack them one, maybe they won’t do it again? It’s the possibility of the quick fix. But quick fixes seldom work.
It’s hard to put your kid in time out, sometimes multiple times. It’s hard to take away things or give punishments that might make things a pain int he ass for you. It’s hard to have constant discussions about what is and is not acceptable and why.
But I’ll be damned if I’m ever going to be on the other side of my son’s terrified eyes as I hit him. What the fuck lesson am I teaching him? That other people are sometimes evil/ass holes and might resort to violence to get you to comply? Does he really need to learn that lesson at age 3?
To the extent Sweden has high crime rates I’m guessing it mostly is linked to high alcohol consumption, a relatively short history (compared to Southern Europe) of living in urbanized civilizations, and maybe an excessively lenient judicial system, not with corporal punishment one way or the other.
Im saying this as someone who generally favors corporal punishment BTW.