# Children saying "sir" and "ma'am": Asshole parents? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [May 26, 2010, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/children-saying-sir-and-maam-asshole-parents/540775 "2010-05-26T01:10:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Labrador\_Deceiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7c8e57/32.png) [@Labrador\_Deceiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Labrador_Deceiver)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2010, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/children-saying-sir-and-maam-asshole-parents/540775/101 "2010-05-27T13:59:25Z")
> [@spoke-](#): > > And “sir” and “ma’am” aren’t used in those contexts. “Mama” would be used there. > > “Sir” and “Ma’am” are used when responding to questions or instructions. You’d think folks here would pick up on that, since it’s been explained about a half dozen or more times. ---
**Author:** ![NinetyWt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/cc9497/32.png) [@NinetyWt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NinetyWt)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2010, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/children-saying-sir-and-maam-asshole-parents/540775/102 "2010-05-27T14:20:45Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > If I heard this, I’d assume firstly the parents were Americans. \*Then \*assholes. No causal link there, it’d just \*first \*stand out as an Americanism. Then, when I thought about it a second or two, the “kids as property” element would get to me, and I’d think “assholes”. That at least makes sense. I don’t know anyone who treats their kids as property any more (although I did know of some horrid people like that back in the 60’s, growing up), so you would probably be mistaken as to the parents’ motives in enforcing the practice. ---
**Author:** ![Omega\_Glory](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/7c8e57/32.png) [@Omega\_Glory](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omega_Glory)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2010, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/children-saying-sir-and-maam-asshole-parents/540775/103 "2010-05-27T15:11:17Z")
No, not just based on that. My first thought would be that the parents are a bit overly formal, but then I’d remember the strange conclusions people would draw about my family because almost no one uses titles when talking to each other, and remind myself that I didn’t have enough information to know anything about the family’s dynamics. ---
**Author:** ![TheFifthYear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/958977/32.png) [@TheFifthYear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheFifthYear)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2010, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/children-saying-sir-and-maam-asshole-parents/540775/104 "2010-05-27T15:47:55Z")
I wouldn’t necessarily think they were assholes, but I would definitely assume southern, probably from the deep and rural south, and there’s a whole host of stereotypes that go along with that. But the language usage itself is just sort of a weird, mostly harmless oddity. ---
**Author:** ![Drain\_Bead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e47774/32.png) [@Drain\_Bead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drain_Bead)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2010, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/children-saying-sir-and-maam-asshole-parents/540775/105 "2010-05-27T16:05:52Z")
I will teach my kid to address everyone ELSE as sir or ma’am, but not family. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2010, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/children-saying-sir-and-maam-asshole-parents/540775/106 "2010-05-27T16:13:25Z")
> [@Chicagojeff](#): > > I would have to disagree with you. I’ve found in my line of work when I’m dealing with a particularly reprehensible person.. (gang banger.. child molester) instead of showing them the disdain and disrespect they so utterly deserve I totally disarm them with respect and courtesy. It reminds me that the extension of this is thru ME and not contingent upon the character of the receiver. For example during a traffic stop I was referred to in multiple racial slurs. I kept my cool by responding forcibly yet courteous. I’ve taught both of my youngin’s that everyone may not DESERVE your respect.. but you need to extend it as a practice. I don’t understand this usage of respect. I agree that it is merely being courteous. Because you don’t honestly think well of these people. It’s that, despite the fact that you do not respect them, you go ahead and use polite language to throw them off. I wonder if this definition difference is part of the language barrier. And I didn’t realize this thread was about that. I thought we were only discussing when referring to parents. There are plenty of times when using sir and ma’am are useful. It’s a way of deferring to authority, or being polite with people you don’t know or are otherwise not close to. I was picturing the parents that force their kids to use it all the time, which to me implies they never act as their child’s friend. I’d never say “Yes, sir” to my friend. And good parents, while acting as authority figures, also spend time acting like their child’s friend. Doing otherwise is what I consider distant–treating it like you are more important than the kids. ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2010, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/children-saying-sir-and-maam-asshole-parents/540775/107 "2010-05-27T16:21:56Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > I was picturing the parents that force their kids to use it all the time, which to me implies they never act as their child’s friend. I’d never say “Yes, sir” to my friend. And good parents, while acting as authority figures, also spend time acting like their child’s friend. Doing otherwise is what I consider distant–treating it like you are more important than the kids. That was certainly the way my parents used it – buttressed by the repeated explanation that ‘‘it doesn’t matter how you feel – children have no rights.’’ ---
**Author:** ![Flipshod](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/f19dbf/32.png) [@Flipshod](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Flipshod)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2010, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/children-saying-sir-and-maam-asshole-parents/540775/108 "2010-05-27T16:22:43Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > I’m 43 years old, raised in the South since I was 10 years old. I still call others “sir” and “ma’am” regularly, although I never called my parents that. > > When I went to college I moved from South Florida to Panhandle Florida, which is Deep South territory, and I heard everyone saying “sir” and “ma’am”, and people generally seemed to use it as a sign of respect for whoever they were addressing. I soon adopted the practice, and it’s now a completely unconscious thing. > > I think when I was younger I saw being forced to say it as oppressive, but as a voluntarily offered measure of respect, I like using the words. Yep. 43 myself and raised in the Deep South. I never had to be so formal with my own parents, but it’s a pretty normal custom around here. And like you, I use it in social situations with strangers out of habit/courtesy. With one caveat. I never address someone as sir or ma’am, but will append it to a thank-you or some other small talk at the end. Why? Because I realized that the only people who first address me as “sir” are cops, and it’s never really felt all that respectful to me.😉 ---
**Author:** ![Flipshod](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/f19dbf/32.png) [@Flipshod](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Flipshod)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2010, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/children-saying-sir-and-maam-asshole-parents/540775/109 "2010-05-27T16:35:31Z")
> [@AClockworkMelon](#): > > Uh, no, they haven’t. But in a social situation where the younger person doesn’t know whether the adult deserves respect, the default position should be to assume that the adult does. That’s usually the correct position, and it can be taken back later as necessary. The error the other way is for the child to disrespect people until respect is proven. That’s hardly a way toward social harmony–thus small things like courtesies arise. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2010, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/children-saying-sir-and-maam-asshole-parents/540775/110 "2010-05-27T18:39:55Z")
> [@NinetyWt](#): > > That at least makes sense. I don’t know anyone who treats their kids as property any more (although I did know of some horrid people like that back in the 60’s, growing up), so you would probably be mistaken as to the parents’ motives in enforcing the practice. Were you in the “OK to take a teen’s door off its hinges” thread? Lots of “kids as property” in there. ---
**Author:** ![DChord568](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@DChord568](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DChord568)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2010, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/children-saying-sir-and-maam-asshole-parents/540775/111 "2010-05-27T18:40:27Z")
> [@OpalCat](#): > > Assholes? No. However it does sound very foreign to me, and very cold. It seems like it puts a layer of stiff formality between parent and child, which I couldn’t imagine having with my own child. It would break my heart if my son felt he had to say “ma’am” to address me. I’m his _mother_. I’m MOM. I realize that in the south and perhaps other parts of the country it is normal and not viewed that way, but it wasn’t common where I was raised and kind of freaks me out a little when I hear it. > > Where I was raised, you’d only call someone sir or ma’am if they were a cop or an officer in the military. And then, only if you didn’t know them personally. This nails it for me. First, a lot of people seem to be putting all their “sirs” and “ma’ams” into one basket. A “sir” or “ma’am” from a young person to an older one who is a stranger, I can understand and accept. A “sir” or “ma’am” to one’s father or mother seems like a distancing mechanism to me, even if it’s not intended to be. I’m with OpalCat on this one, and I can’t possibly imagine it from my son or my daughters, given the close relationship I have with each of them. All of us would think it positively ludicrous. Personally, I’m at the point in my life when cashiers and other service people are calling me sir, and I HATE it…absolutely hate it. I want to say to them (and I actually have upon occasion) “Don’t call me that…‘sir’ is what you call an old person!” Well, OK, I’m a lot older than them, but I don’t want to be reminded of it. Let me indulge in a lingering fantasy or two. For myself, I judge things on a case-by-case basis. If I encounter a dignified, formal-looking man or woman of a certain bearing, I might use “sir” or “ma’am” if the occasion seemed to call for it. On the other hand, if the person in question presents an easy-going, open and friendly demeanor, I would feel silly. I also believe there are other means of showing respect to someone; sir and ma’am aren’t the only ones, and may not be the best. Bottom line…there’s no one size fits all answer here…except that a child calling his dad or mom “sir” or “ma’am” would cause me to sit up and take some notice, and make some assumptions about their relationship (admittedly, possibly unwarranted ones). ---
**Author:** ![NinetyWt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/cc9497/32.png) [@NinetyWt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NinetyWt)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2010, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/children-saying-sir-and-maam-asshole-parents/540775/112 "2010-05-27T19:26:23Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > I was picturing the parents that force their kids to use it all the time, which to me implies they never act as their child’s friend. I’d never say “Yes, sir” to my friend. And good parents, while acting as authority figures, also spend time acting like their child’s friend. Doing otherwise is what I consider distant–treating it like you are more important than the kids. Hence the “sir” going back towards the child (“Pick up your toys, please sir”) - it’s not as one-sided as you’re afraid of. I hesitate to get on board with being the child’s “friend” though. You’ve gotta maintain a degree of authority in order to raise children without having chaos in your home. You can’t really be their friend until they’re grown. > [@MrDibble](#): > > Were you in the “OK to take a teen’s door off its hinges” thread? Lots of “kids as property” in there. I must admit that I didn’t read very far into that thread. What I mean is that I don’t witness it in meatspace. ---
**Author:** ![filling\_pages](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/b9bd4f/32.png) [@filling\_pages](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filling_pages)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2010, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/children-saying-sir-and-maam-asshole-parents/540775/113 "2010-05-27T21:02:18Z")
I have to tell those of y’all who find this formal and assholish a little secret: we’re judging you, too. Every time your kid answers “yeah?” or “what?” instead of “yes, ma’am?” I assume their upbringing was a little… lacking in terms of manners. Or, as mama would say, “They’re yankees, bless their hearts.” And, as I said in the other thread, my folks are lefty hippie types, and about as far from formal as you can get. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2010, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/children-saying-sir-and-maam-asshole-parents/540775/114 "2010-05-27T21:14:33Z")
Not only do I not find it assholish, it’s irritating to me when kids _don’t_ use respectful terms to their elders. Back in my day (right before we had to hide from Nat Turner) you _never_ called an adult, particularly an older one, by their ‘naked’ first name- it was “Miss Louise” or “Mister Charlie”- that also still irks me when I hear a kid address me, unbidden, as Jon. (That said I _detest_ being called Mister Jon by somebody older than puberty- Mr. Sampiro is fine, Jon is fine, but don’t merge 'em.) Of course to all things an exception. We (my siblings and I) called our great-aunts by their first names. A social worker who visited once was shocked at this and told my aunt, who was in her late 90s, “I can’t believe he calls you Carrie… in my family I’d call you Aunt Carrie or Miss Carrie”. Carrie told her “Call your family anything you want, but he calls me Carrie and has since he could talk and I’m fine with that.” Of course this is the same social worker who Carrie had stumped a moment earlier when she asked how old she was. Carrie: I’m about ninety seven I reckon. Social Worker: Well I’m hoping you make it to a hundred or better! Carrie: Why? Social Worker: [silence] [confused looks] Uh… so that you can teach us… Carrie: About what? Social Worker: [silence] [confused looks] U… well about lots of things… you can teach us and talk to us about the old days… wouldn’t you like that? Carrie: No. Social Worker: Why not? Carrie: Because I’m ninety-seven! But great-aunts were the exception. ---
**Author:** ![Lacunae\_Matata](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8491ac/32.png) [@Lacunae\_Matata](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lacunae_Matata)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2010, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/children-saying-sir-and-maam-asshole-parents/540775/115 "2010-05-27T21:45:50Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > Not only do I not find it assholish, it’s irritating to me when kids _don’t_ use respectful terms to their elders. Back in my day (right before we had to hide from Nat Turner) you _never_ called an adult, particularly an older one, by their ‘naked’ first name- it was “Miss Louise” or “Mister Charlie”- that also still irks me when I hear a kid address me, unbidden, as Jon. (That said I _detest_ being called Mister Jon by somebody older than puberty- Mr. Sampiro is fine, Jon is fine, but don’t merge 'em.) > > (snip) > > But great-aunts were the exception. Betcha still said “Yes, ma’am” to Carrie, though! And I was also raised not to call an adult by their given name. Basically, if someone was old enough to have been one of your parents, you called them “Miss Jane,” “Mrs. Roe,” “Cousin Jane” (if she was a cousin, no matter how distant,) or “Aunt Jane,” for the closest family friends. This debate seems (to me) to be something like the “two countries separated by a common language” thing. Many people seem to equate sir/ma’am with oppression or a dominant/submissive relationship. However, in my neck of the woods, it’s nothing at all like that; they’re just courteous forms of address, without the same connotations as, say, military usage. No more or less formal than “pardon me.” I consider teaching my kids good manners an important part of their educations: An advanced degree and good manners will get you further in life than just the degree! (I’ve certainly based a lot of hiring decisions through the years on how courteous an applicant was. My theory - proven right through the years - is that I can teach paperwork/computer skills/whatever other technical aspect an employee might need to learn, but I can’t teach personality.) ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2010, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/children-saying-sir-and-maam-asshole-parents/540775/116 "2010-05-27T22:06:23Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > Just that in Sound of Music, the kids were very “Yes, sir, no sir,” and things were a bit hands off. Until Julie Andrews sang her way into Captain Von Trapp’s life and things lightened up and then Nazis came. You know, of course, that all the real Von Trapp kids agree that their Dad was a jovial, warm fellow, and that Maria was the true disciplinarian of the family? ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2010, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/children-saying-sir-and-maam-asshole-parents/540775/117 "2010-05-27T22:15:09Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > You know, of course, that all the real Von Trapp kids agree that their Dad was a jovial, warm fellow, and that Maria was the true disciplinarian of the family? I did, actually (friend of mine is a huge Julie Andrews/Sound of Music fan). I was going to add that in but then didn’t want to go overboard with the Sound of Music posting. But I guess you can’t have Julie Andrews playing a strict disciplinarian. Even when she’s Mary Poppins, she’s gotta lead the way through song and dance. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2010, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/children-saying-sir-and-maam-asshole-parents/540775/118 "2010-05-27T22:25:51Z")
> [@Lacunae\_Matata](#): > > Betcha still said “Yes, ma’am” to Carrie, though! True that. I remember a huge fight I had with my father once. He had done something to tick me off (probably legitimate- he could be a horse’s ass) and I was a teenager and- to use an old country expression- “smellin’ myself” (i.e. teenaged cockiness) and I yelled at him “I can’t stand you old man!” He asked “What’d you just say to me?” and I repeated “I can’t stand you old man!” My mother who had overheard the exchange and who routinely called my father everything but a child of God told me, and it was clear she meant it, “Don’t you talk to your father like that!” I thought for a second about what she meant and then said “I can’t stand you, sir!” Both of my parents said “That’s better”. They weren’t being facetious. My family also had a rule that while some might call it dysfunctional I will freely admit I’d see it enacted as law if I could. We NEVER argued in public. At home, in the car, in hotel rooms, anywhere it was just us there might be every kind of “son-of-a-bitch” and motherfucker and “I’m gonna break your goddam neck” if we got mad at each other, my brother and I kept each other black and blue for fifteen years, BUT in public, united front. The most you could do was “good naturedly” tease a parent if they provoked you with the clear understanding “To be continued”, but we were taught that airing dirty linen in front of outsiders was the worst form of incivility. To this day when I see a family arguing in public or kids disrespecting their parents in public I wanna “pass 'em a slap”. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2010, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/children-saying-sir-and-maam-asshole-parents/540775/119 "2010-05-27T22:33:24Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > But I guess you can’t have Julie Andrews playing a strict disciplinarian. Even when she’s Mary Poppins, she’s gotta lead the way through song and dance. Too bad they didn’t go with Bette Davis as the governess. “Raindrops and roses and black and blue bruises/showing what happens when you blow nanny’s fuses/disobedient children all tied up with strings/these are a few of my favorite things… smoke break!” ---
**Author:** ![ratatoskK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ratatoskk/32/2987_2.png) [@ratatoskK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ratatoskK)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2010, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/children-saying-sir-and-maam-asshole-parents/540775/120 "2010-05-28T00:21:49Z")
I said “Other” because it really depends on where you’re from. Up here in New England, if the family were from up here it would be very strange behavior, but if they immigrated from the Deep South then maybe it’s normal down there. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/children-saying-sir-and-maam-asshole-parents/540775.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/children-saying-sir-and-maam-asshole-parents/540775.md?page=7)