# Children speaking with the dead (ed. title per OP req.) **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 1, 2009, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/children-speaking-with-the-dead-ed-title-per-op-req/504952 "2009-08-01T03:23:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![bri1600bv](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9fc29f/32.png) [@bri1600bv](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bri1600bv)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2009, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/children-speaking-with-the-dead-ed-title-per-op-req/504952/81 "2009-08-06T01:39:32Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > I was responding to _you_, not the article. > > As for the rest: yawn. Regardless of your apparent inclination to fight, this anecdote is not an issue that is worth the effort of fighting violently over - or even the effort reading an entire uninteresting article. So feel free to get all agitated but you’ll be doing it by your lone self. > > What forum are we in again? Don’t trouble me with the facts! I’m a scientist! Bullshit you are. You’re just a condescending clown. In real life I would gather that my job as an actuary is a lot more scientific than anything you’ve ever seen busing tables at the drive-thru. Yawn! Clown. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2009, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/children-speaking-with-the-dead-ed-title-per-op-req/504952/82 "2009-08-06T16:14:36Z")
> [@bri1600bv](#): > > Don’t trouble me with the facts! I’m a scientist! > > Bullshit you are. You’re just a condescending clown. In real life I would gather that my job as an actuary is a lot more scientific than anything you’ve ever seen busing tables at the drive-thru. > > Yawn! Clown. You really don’t know the rules for this forum, do you? You might want to look into them, before somebody does it for you. But regardless, if anybody is interested in the actual subject at hand, it’s worth noting how little my casual errors-from-apathy effect the outcome. So I misread that the mother had had the dreams or the prayers or whatever she had, instead of whichever non-mother person actually had them. Does who had the dream actually _matter_? It is substantively more or less plausible as an accurate report of events when correctly attributed? Are non-mother people less capable of re-interpreting events to better reflect an expected outcome? Hardly. As I said before, this is just sniping at me without substantantively contesting my point, which is simply that when dealing with anecdotes that don’t involve much in the way of independent verification of the events that occurred, there is a _lot_ of potential for things to be ‘re-interpreted’. This potential comes squarely from the way humans categorize and remember their observations, and the fact that such misreporting can occur isn’t really something that’s under dispute. Unless admitting that takes the air out of the sails of a favored anecdote or theory, anyway. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2009, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/children-speaking-with-the-dead-ed-title-per-op-req/504952/83 "2009-08-06T22:27:19Z")
**Lekatt** so I have dreams about Grace Jones in a snazzy leather outfit because I am spiritual? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2009, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/children-speaking-with-the-dead-ed-title-per-op-req/504952/84 "2009-08-07T01:29:33Z")
> [@bri1600bv](#): > > I’d say you’re the “True Believer” otherwise known as an ass. > [@bri1600bv](#): > > You’re just a condescending clown. > . . . > Yawn! Clown. Do not hurl personal insults at other posters in this forum. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2009, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/children-speaking-with-the-dead-ed-title-per-op-req/504952/85 "2009-08-07T15:10:01Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > **Lekatt** so I have dreams about Grace Jones in a snazzy leather outfit because I am spiritual? Yes, how can something totally material produce non-material events. How can total water produce gold? How can total sound produce sight? How can anything pure, produce unpure events? etc.,etc.,etc. ---
**Author:** ![toadspittle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c0e974/32.png) [@toadspittle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/toadspittle)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2009, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/children-speaking-with-the-dead-ed-title-per-op-req/504952/86 "2009-08-07T16:15:14Z")
> [@Koxinga](#): > > Well, I was trying to satirize Czarcasm’s list to some extent, but I guess it wasn’t taken as such. (I thought your comments were very funny, Koxinga. Sorry everyone else was whooshed.) ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2009, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/children-speaking-with-the-dead-ed-title-per-op-req/504952/87 "2009-08-07T18:11:16Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > Yes, how can something totally material produce non-material events. > How can total water produce gold? How can total sound produce sight? > How can anything pure, produce unpure events? > etc.,etc.,etc. What…? Seriously, I have no clue what you’re talking about. Much less how this is supposed to relate to what you responded to. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2009, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/children-speaking-with-the-dead-ed-title-per-op-req/504952/88 "2009-08-07T18:21:38Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > What…? Seriously, I have no clue what you’re talking about. Much less how this is supposed to relate to what you responded to. Nothing new about this, friend ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2009, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/children-speaking-with-the-dead-ed-title-per-op-req/504952/89 "2009-08-07T18:54:37Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > Nothing new about this, friend Thanks for calling me a moron, _friend_. Usually I _do_ understand your ramblings; I just don’t agree with your assertions. It’s just that this crossed the line into _complete_ incoherence. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2009, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/children-speaking-with-the-dead-ed-title-per-op-req/504952/90 "2009-08-07T20:37:36Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > Thanks for calling me a moron, _friend_. Usually I _do_ understand your ramblings; I just don’t agree with your assertions. It’s just that this crossed the line into _complete_ incoherence. You never agree with my posts, and I called you friend, you called yourself moron. When I say friend I mean it. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2009, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/children-speaking-with-the-dead-ed-title-per-op-req/504952/91 "2009-08-07T20:55:00Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > You never agree with my posts, and I called you friend, you called yourself moron. When I say friend I mean it. It’s an increasingly common tactic around here to accuse other posters of having failed to read or comprehend the posts they make, when in reality what is happening is the original poster is being understood just fine and is getting their argumentive butt kicked. The purpose of such accusations is to slide an ad-homenim under the table and under the forum rules - to insult the other poster and dismiss their arguments that way. It’s a slimy dishonest scummy underhanded hateful cowardly tactic, and IS exactly equivalent to calling them a moron, and NOBODY uses it on their friends. No matter _what_ they say they meant after the fact. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2009, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/children-speaking-with-the-dead-ed-title-per-op-req/504952/92 "2009-08-07T21:19:16Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > It’s an increasingly common tactic around here to accuse other posters of having failed to read or comprehend the posts they make, when in reality what is happening is the original poster is being understood just fine and is getting their argumentive butt kicked. The purpose of such accusations is to slide an ad-homenim under the table and under the forum rules - to insult the other poster and dismiss their arguments that way. > > It’s a slimy dishonest scummy underhanded hateful cowardly tactic, and IS exactly equivalent to calling them a moron, and NOBODY uses it on their friends. No matter _what_ they say they meant after the fact. OK But what’s that got to do with my post? ---
**Author:** ![toadspittle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c0e974/32.png) [@toadspittle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/toadspittle)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2009, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/children-speaking-with-the-dead-ed-title-per-op-req/504952/93 "2009-08-07T23:14:14Z")
No offense, lekatt, but your response reads like a Zen koan: > [@lekatt](#): > > Yes, how can something totally material produce non-material events. > How can total water produce gold? How can total sound produce sight? > How can anything pure, produce unpure events? > etc.,etc.,etc. A little clarification is not out of line. Please expand on your statements. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2009, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/children-speaking-with-the-dead-ed-title-per-op-req/504952/94 "2009-08-07T23:17:22Z")
> [@toadspittle](#): > > No offense, lekatt, but your response reads like a Zen koan: As a lover of koans, I disagree. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2009, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/children-speaking-with-the-dead-ed-title-per-op-req/504952/95 "2009-08-08T00:12:17Z")
> [@toadspittle](#): > > No offense, lekatt, but your response reads like a Zen koan: > > A little clarification is not out of line. Please expand on your statements. What is the sound of one hand clapping? Ok, it is generally believed, wrongly, that there is nothing but material things in this world, and everything can be accounted for with natural or materialist explanations. Using that as a given and realizing thoughts, emotions, dreams, and consciousness itself is not materialistic, can not be seen, measured, etc. then how does one produce the other? ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2009, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/children-speaking-with-the-dead-ed-title-per-op-req/504952/96 "2009-08-08T01:12:54Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > Using that as a given and realizing thoughts, emotions, dreams, and consciousness itself is not materialistic, Why should we believe this? What proof do you have they are not materialistic? > [@](#): > > can not be seen, measured Gravity can not be seen, nor can electrons. Does this mean they are spiritual? As for measuring dreams, and thoughts what scale would you suggest? What unit would we use? ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2009, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/children-speaking-with-the-dead-ed-title-per-op-req/504952/97 "2009-08-08T01:18:01Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > Why should we believe this? What proof do you have they are not materialistic? > > Gravity can not be seen, nor can electrons. Does this mean they are spiritual? > > As for measuring dreams, and thoughts what scale would you suggest? What unit would we use? Come on Doc, we can measure gravity, electrons, etc. We even know where they are. How do you measure a consciousness, that you can’t see, or even know where it is. You lost, ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2009, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/children-speaking-with-the-dead-ed-title-per-op-req/504952/98 "2009-08-08T01:23:12Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > Come on Doc, we can measure gravity, electrons, etc. I NEVER said they could not be _measured_. I said, and still say, that they cannot be _seen_ > [@](#): > > How do you measure a consciousness, that you can’t see, The same way we measure electrons, gravity and all those other things we cannot see. > [@](#): > > or even know where it is. All evidence points to consciousness being in the brain. When pressed for evidence, you produce anecdotes, studies that don’t say what you claim, and similar non-evidence. > [@](#): > > You lost, No, **Lekatt** you lose. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2009, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/children-speaking-with-the-dead-ed-title-per-op-req/504952/99 "2009-08-08T01:28:47Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > I NEVER said they could not be _measured_. I said, and still say, that they cannot be _seen_ > > The same way we measure electrons, gravity and all those other things we cannot see. > > All evidence points to consciousness being in the brain. When pressed for evidence, you produce anecdotes, studies that don’t say what you claim, and similar non-evidence. > > No, **Lekatt** you lose. What evidence? Nothing material has ever been found in the brain that can be attributed to consciousness. OK measure me a consciousness and tell me how big it is, how much does it weigh, what color is it, and exactly where is it. Now is the time to show your evidence. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2009, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/children-speaking-with-the-dead-ed-title-per-op-req/504952/100 "2009-08-08T01:33:14Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > What evidence? Nothing material has ever been found in the brain that can be attributed to consciousness. > > OK measure me a consciousness and tell me how big it is, how much does it weigh, what color is it, and exactly where is it. > > Now is the time to show your evidence. First, _you_ must define what you mean when you use the word “evidence”, and be willing to have your own cites judged by the same criteria. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/children-speaking-with-the-dead-ed-title-per-op-req/504952.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/children-speaking-with-the-dead-ed-title-per-op-req/504952.md?page=6)