# Children tried as an adult for murder **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 19, 2014, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/children-tried-as-an-adult-for-murder/691145 "2014-06-19T14:19:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2014, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/children-tried-as-an-adult-for-murder/691145/21 "2014-06-21T21:44:14Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > I agree with Bryan Ekers, no grandstanding involved. A 13 year old who would tie another child to a tree and attempt to burn him to death would best be put down. I agree. And this is why I support an efficient death penalty system, and yes, even for 13 year olds. That act is just pure evil that no amount of rehabilitation will cure. Lethal injection for him. ---
**Author:** ![LibrarySpy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f9ae1b/32.png) [@LibrarySpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LibrarySpy)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2014, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/children-tried-as-an-adult-for-murder/691145/22 "2014-06-21T23:30:25Z")
[Can You Call a 9-Year-Old a Psychopath?](http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/13/magazine/can-you-call-a-9-year-old-a-psychopath.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0). Relevant article. While I’m not in favor of putting them down like mad dogs, I’m not sure what the solution is… ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2014, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/children-tried-as-an-adult-for-murder/691145/23 "2014-06-21T23:55:45Z")
> [@LibrarySpy](#): > > [Can You Call a 9-Year-Old a Psychopath?](http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/13/magazine/can-you-call-a-9-year-old-a-psychopath.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0). Relevant article. > > While I’m not in favor of putting them down like mad dogs, I’m not sure what the solution is… It’s mad dogs and turtles all the way down. They don’t get better with juvy or prison. I hated coming to this conclusion as much as you are fighting it. Lethal injection. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2014, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/children-tried-as-an-adult-for-murder/691145/24 "2014-06-21T23:59:31Z")
Yeah, got to agree. I have worked with sex offenders and “troubled youths” in both therapeutic and punitive contexts. There are some who just cannot be fixed. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2014, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/children-tried-as-an-adult-for-murder/691145/25 "2014-06-22T04:23:14Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > In my eyes that makes you as sick as the child involved. Seriously, that is disturbing thing to hear, anonymous internet grandstanding or not. Opinions notwithstanding, I’m not anonymous. ---
**Author:** ![Blackfaer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@Blackfaer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blackfaer)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2014, 4:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/children-tried-as-an-adult-for-murder/691145/26 "2014-06-22T04:58:04Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > Yeah, got to agree. I have worked with sex offenders and “troubled youths” in both therapeutic and punitive contexts. There are some who just cannot be fixed. I believe this to be true. That said, how do we decide which ones won’t be able to be fixed? A 13 year old? a 9 year old? How can we tell? Some who committed murders as children have grown up to be valuable members of society who have worked to prevent child crime by others. Add in the reality that juries often convict people later found to be innocent, and I have a hard time with the death penalty being used, particularly on a child. It’s not that it’s unjust in certain circumstances, it’s that I don’t trust our system to choose the right circumstances. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2014, 12:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/children-tried-as-an-adult-for-murder/691145/27 "2014-06-22T12:21:45Z")
> [@Blackfaer](#): > > I believe this to be true. That said, how do we decide which ones won’t be able to be fixed? A 13 year old? a 9 year old? How can we tell? Some who committed murders as children have grown up to be valuable members of society who have worked to prevent child crime by others. > > Add in the reality that juries often convict people later found to be innocent, and I have a hard time with the death penalty being used, particularly on a child. It’s not that it’s unjust in certain circumstances, it’s that I don’t trust our system to choose the right circumstances. We imprison them and see if they can be fixed. Of course, we will probably prevent their improvement by imprisoning them. Every person on a jury that convicted an innocent person was certain they were guilty. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2014, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/children-tried-as-an-adult-for-murder/691145/28 "2014-06-22T14:56:31Z")
I cannot wrap my head around anyone considering the death penalty for children. Various methods are open for the treatment of such people and yet some people favour “putting them down” like “mad dogs”. I have been very surprised and saddened by what has been written here. People having to ask why I’m against the state execution of 13 year old children…seriously? I know the USA has a fixation with the death penalty out of all kilter with the rest of the civilised world but I would never think that a fairly liberal board such as this would be able to produce multiple posters in favour of executing children. 13 years old seems to give no cause for concern for some of you. Horrendous tales can be told regarding children even younger so where would you stop? This isn’t the pit so I can’t and won’t go further. I find it depressing to even consider prolonging the argument. How can there even _be_ a argument for it in the 21st century? I couldn’t live in a country that uses the death penalty and I don’t think I could even live comfortable amongst people who hold the views expressed here. I certainly can’t summon the energy to argue with them further. I’d be in favour of incarceration and treatment until such time as they are no longer a danger or for life if the need arises, but hey, I’m such a bleeding heart liberal as I can’t summon up the stomach to put a bullet between their eyes. I’m done, lest these thoughts spoil the rest of my weekend. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2014, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/children-tried-as-an-adult-for-murder/691145/29 "2014-06-22T15:34:55Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > I cannot wrap my head around anyone considering the death penalty for children. Various methods are open for the treatment of such people and yet some people favour “putting them down” like “mad dogs”. If a kid uses drugs or smart mouths his mom, or even robs a bank, that can be attributed to immaturity and be corrected with the methods we have. Tying another human being to a tree, dousing him with gasoline and setting him on fucking fire? That’s pure evil. We were both 13 once. When you were 13 would you have considered such a thing? Is it something that as you grow older you realize is improper? Gee, now that I am 20, I realize that those impulses were wrong and I shouldn’t be tying people to trees and burning them. I will now proceed to be a productive member of society. I come to the opposite conclusion as you. I think it is more uncivilized to the victims of these crimes to attempt to coddle these evil people and pretend that they can somehow be rehabilitated. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2014, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/children-tried-as-an-adult-for-murder/691145/30 "2014-06-22T17:33:19Z")
One wonders about the rate of recidivism for crimes of that sort committed by young people. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2014, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/children-tried-as-an-adult-for-murder/691145/31 "2014-06-22T19:29:24Z")
Gavrilo Princip assassinated the Archduke Franz Ferdinand, the heir to the Austrian throne, which triggered WWI. And yet even HE wasn’t given the death penalty, since he wasn’t of legal age for the death penalty at that time (he was about a month or so short of his 20th birthday). The Austrian Empire started a fucking war over the this episode, but the didn’t execute the assassin, because he wasn’t legally old enough. And we’re talking about _executing 13-year-olds_. Christ. I don’t want to live on this planet anymore. (I’m not saying what this kid did wasn’t majorly fucked up, or that he shouldn’t get a lengthy sentence. But kids that age don’t start setting people on fire right out of the blue. Can he be rehabilitated? It’s tough to say. Executing a kid? Hell, we don’t even let 13-year-olds drive, or vote, but we can have them executed? WTF kind of system are we running here!) ---
**Author:** ![Blackfaer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@Blackfaer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blackfaer)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2014, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/children-tried-as-an-adult-for-murder/691145/32 "2014-06-22T21:44:05Z")
A 13 year old who set fire to another kid is definitely an evil act. What caused it though? Was he schizophrenic? Simple medication and treatment can make him a civilized person again. It’s possible he was abused and molested and horribly treated to make him into a pretty screwed up and evil kid who had no problem with the death of the other kid. It’s also possible that he could be helped with the right combination of treatments and become a normal person who would forever spend his life trying to make up for the horrible thing he did as a kid. Evil acts do not necessarily make for an evil person who deserves to die. And I’m certainly not going to be the one to make that choice, and I don’t trust most people to be able to be sure enough to make a choice that he must die. We’re just not that smart. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2014, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/children-tried-as-an-adult-for-murder/691145/33 "2014-06-22T22:00:50Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > I don’t want to live on this planet anymore. Do what you need to do then, or you could just stop the drama queening. Can’t say I have a preference. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2014, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/children-tried-as-an-adult-for-murder/691145/34 "2014-06-22T23:13:53Z")
> [@Blackfaer](#): > > A 13 year old who set fire to another kid is definitely an evil act. What caused it though? Was he schizophrenic? Simple medication and treatment can make him a civilized person again. I do find that difficult to believe. Have you any cites where this has happened? Perhaps I am straddling the fence on this. I am against the death penalty, but I believe he should be institutionalized. There are far too many people [turned back on the street](http://www.fox16.com/news/story/Update-Little-Rock-Man-Held-on-1-Million-Bond-in/d/story/DMHjByV340mmzDxfidB3ng) after committing crimes who commit still more crimes. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2014, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/children-tried-as-an-adult-for-murder/691145/35 "2014-06-23T12:58:40Z")
> [@Blackfaer](#): > > Simple medication and treatment can make him a civilized person again. That might be true before the end of this century. I don’t believe it’s so now. > [@](#): > > It’s possible he was abused and molested and horribly treated to make him into a pretty screwed up and evil kid who had no problem with the death of the other kid. It’s also possible that he was vivisecting kittens and puppies before trying his first human, with no obvious negative formative events. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2014, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/children-tried-as-an-adult-for-murder/691145/36 "2014-06-23T13:50:36Z")
We might feel badly about how he got that way. That really doesn’t point to it being a good idea to keep him around, though. The sex offenders with whom I worked, to a one, could give you sad stories. What they couldn’t give was genuine remorse, authentic empathy, or reasonable assurance they would not re-offend. They were among the most manipulative, heartless people I have ever known. I quite sincerely hope that some of them are dead. I can’t think of a reason why a fellow who rapes his deaf, retarded sister repeatedly and then rents her out to his friends so they can rape her, should still be walking the Earth, for example. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2014, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/children-tried-as-an-adult-for-murder/691145/37 "2014-06-23T14:07:12Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > That might be true before the end of this century. I don’t believe it’s so now. Well, since _ **Bryan Ekers** _ doesn’t hold out any hope, it’s off to the gas chamber with him. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2014, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/children-tried-as-an-adult-for-murder/691145/38 "2014-06-23T14:25:25Z")
Hope morphs into self-delusion rather easily. ---
**Author:** ![Learjeff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/94ad74/32.png) [@Learjeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Learjeff)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2014, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/children-tried-as-an-adult-for-murder/691145/39 "2014-06-23T14:55:57Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > That’s pure evil. You say that like it’s a thing. Is that a religious claim? Perhaps you mean “deranged beyond repair”. As stated above, how do we come to that conclusion: by the act alone? Or do we think we actually have enough of a clue about child psychology that we can answer? If you think we do, I question your judgment. I believe that a civilized society shouldn’t be killing its citizens, other that to prevent more harm (shooting a terrorist, killing enemies in wars). That’s just my opinion, though, and if society agrees that we should, well, that’s democracy. I’d argue against it, but wouldn’t turn my back on such a state or nation. But we’re not talking about capital punishment in general; we’re talking about children, who (as current science seems to show) have not yet completed their psychological and emotional development, and are thus not considered criminally culpable in the same ways as adults. I say, lock 'em up and keep them from causing more harm. This would be cheaper than executing them, and is certainly more defensible philosophically. Furthermore, I won’t accept anyone’s “They NEVER get better” without a cite that includes the statistics. I’m sure there are plenty who never do, but I bet there are counterexamples, and I’ll bet dollars to donuts that we can’t tell them apart at the time. If a kid got shot while trying to toss the match, in a situation like the OP, I’d shake my head in wonder at how anyone could be so deranged, and I’d feel pity that anyone could get to that state, but I’d congratulate the shooter for preventing the devastation of an innocent life. But this talk of “evil” gives me the willies. It’s as though people think there’s some kind of substance or mystical force pervading the messed up people who have too little empathy to prevent them from doing such heinous acts. No, the problem is that they’re really messed up, and we’re all better off if we try to understand it, which won’t be the case if we just put them out of our misery and pat ourselves on the back for a job well done. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2014, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/children-tried-as-an-adult-for-murder/691145/40 "2014-06-23T14:57:28Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Hope morphs into self-delusion rather easily. And ignorance morphs into certainty just as easily. I’m not saying we should unlock the door, hand the kids their clothes and let them run off. I’m just saying we shouldn’t kill them. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/children-tried-as-an-adult-for-murder/691145.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/children-tried-as-an-adult-for-murder/691145.md?page=3)