# Children's Lib and the Status of Minors **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 29, 2023, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/childrens-lib-and-the-status-of-minors/983350 "2023-04-29T19:03:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2023, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/childrens-lib-and-the-status-of-minors/983350/41 "2023-05-01T13:12:54Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Personally, I think that anyone old enough to be able to express a desire to vote, and to be capable of making their vote known without their parents’ interpretation, should be permitted to vote, with their votes worth the same amount, and subject to the same protections, as adults. So what does this look life in real life? How old are you suggesting? 16? 14? 12? 10? 8? 6? 4? 2? (or the odd years) What do you specifically mean by “making their vote known without their parents’ interpretation”? ---
**Author:** ![veryfrank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/87869e/32.png) [@veryfrank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/veryfrank)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2023, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/childrens-lib-and-the-status-of-minors/983350/42 "2023-05-01T14:37:11Z")
This was a big mental exercise for me when I was a kid, and needless to say my opinion changed a bit more as I got older. Obviously not in favor of ten-year-olds getting their drivers’ licences or enlisting, but these days my tendencies towards more rights for minors lean more int he direction of voting. This was especialy true about Brexit. When you saw the breakdown in how age groups voted in 2015, the huge majority of young folks wanted to stay in, while the oldest cohorts were most in favor of leaving the EU. Especially now that the hardest no-deal Brexit was enacted and Britain managed to shoot itself in the face economically, I feel worst for the teens who had to watch it unfold as their grandparents voted to take away their ability to easily travel for work and education. It sound horrible, but the fact that anyone not expected actuarily to live more than a few years (who knows how many Leave voters died between the referendum and Britain’s official departure) got a say in the future of the country while a 17 year old with big plans for experiencing life outside of their island got screwed with their pants on is utterly insane. Polls in Britain show a majority of the opinion that the referendum should have gone the other way; a generation of young people have to deal with the economic hit along with everything else, and could do bugger-all about it. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2023, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/childrens-lib-and-the-status-of-minors/983350/43 "2023-05-01T17:01:45Z")
For those urging greater “rights” to minors, what is your thinking of the (AIUI) pretty established evidence of brain development and maturation during adolescence (approx ages 10-25)? Sure, there are several factors such as environment, an individuals’s hormonal development, etc - but age seems to be a pretty consistent overarching factor. And the ages of maturity for most actions - drive 16, consent to sex 17, vote/join military 18, drink 21… - seem right in the middle of that range. ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2023, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/childrens-lib-and-the-status-of-minors/983350/44 "2023-05-01T17:07:49Z")
When I was 10 I thought I should be allowed to vote, and to drive a car. I mean, I was okay with there being a test, not only “do you know the rules” and “do you have the skill” but also tests of my emotional maturity. But I thought I should have the chance, and I expected I would pass. If our brains are different than adults, that doesn’t make them inferior. Maybe you adults have brains that are already wearing out or something. Schools should not have rules that we didn’t have input on. All PTAs should be reformulated as PTSAs. There should be students on the school board. Rules based on a person’s age are lazy rules. * * * Haven’t had much reason to change my mind since then. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2023, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/childrens-lib-and-the-status-of-minors/983350/45 "2023-05-01T17:15:17Z")
> [@AHunter3](#): > > If our brains are different than adults, that doesn’t make them inferior. Maybe you adults have brains that are already wearing out or something. I disagree. I would say that - on average - adolescent and pre-adolescent brains ARE inferior for making many decisions requiring maturity. Sure, old people can be incompetent. No argument here. Off the top of my head, after a certain age drivers need to take more frequent tests. > [@AHunter3](#): > > Rules based on a person’s age are lazy rules. Perhaps. But you wish to keep this discussion independent of any discussion of how society is ordered. Any society requires some sorts of rules, and age is pretty good for some situations. And expecting more precise rules is extremely costly - and not guaranteed to be significantly “better.” Sure - YOU thought yourself competent to vote and drive at age 10. Maybe you were (tho if you were, I suspect you were exceptional.) How much more do we want to spend to vet how many applications from 10-15 year-olds? And what societal benefit justifies those additional expenses? Heck, at 10, can you even obtain insurance? ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2023, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/childrens-lib-and-the-status-of-minors/983350/46 "2023-05-01T17:42:12Z")
> [@Dinsdale](#): > > But you wish to keep this discussion independent of any discussion of how society is ordered Well, what I was trying to keep from becoming mired in was a lot of “we have this law in place that says this. what do you propose should replace it?” I do think the existing way of doing things has fundamental problems and we could accommodate children’s rights (to some meaningful extent if not necessarily in their entirety). I don’t have such a proposal to lay down for us to critique on a policy-by-policy basis but I thought we should have a discussion on a more general level. ---
**Author:** ![carrps](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carrps/32/2957_2.png) [@carrps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carrps)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2023, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/childrens-lib-and-the-status-of-minors/983350/47 "2023-05-01T17:44:02Z")
> [@AHunter3](#): > > Schools should not have rules that we didn’t have input on. All PTAs should be reformulated as PTSAs. The school district in my town converted to PTSA over 40 years ago. Didn’t change a whole heck of a lot. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2023, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/childrens-lib-and-the-status-of-minors/983350/48 "2023-05-01T17:50:00Z")
> [@AHunter3](#): > > When I was 10 I thought I should be allowed to vote, and to drive a car. Lots of 10-year-olds think they should be allowed to do things they aren’t allowed to do (eat ice cream for dinner, play video games 24/7, have access to explosives, etc.). So? In many cases, adults can understand why it wouldn’t be a good idea for them to be allowed those things. ---
**Author:** ![TruePisces](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/truepisces/32/13628_2.png) [@TruePisces](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TruePisces)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2023, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/childrens-lib-and-the-status-of-minors/983350/49 "2023-05-01T20:08:50Z")
> [@AHunter3](#): > > Schools should not have rules that we didn’t have input on. All PTAs should be reformulated as PTSAs. There should be students on the school board. We have a combination of PTAs, PTSAs and nothing in our district, depending on the school. There was a semi active PTA at my kids’ elementary school, nothing at their middle school (parents not having time to be involved), and an extremely active PTSA at their high school. I’m not sure of the make-up of anything for the other schools in the district. As for school board, a couple years ago the district opened two student positions on the school board - one going to a Senior, the other going to a Junior. The next year, the former Junior keeps their seat and a new Junior is chosen. I’m not sure what kind of voting power they have or if they’re just defacto members with in poor but no power, but it is a good start. ---
**Author:** ![jjakucyk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/3d9bf3/32.png) [@jjakucyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjakucyk)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2023, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/childrens-lib-and-the-status-of-minors/983350/50 "2023-05-01T21:10:51Z")
> [@Dinsdale](#): > > I see parent driving their kids places and scheduling activities, when our parents would have just said, “You have a bike and your 2 legs.” Nowadays parents are being arrested for letting their children walk to school or to the park. Even if that sort of pearl-clutching were to stop, kids can’t walk or bike to the park when it’s been moved five miles away and specifically designed not to connect to nearby neighborhoods by anything other than a lengthy highway with no sidewalks or bike paths. [![](https://i.redd.it/ee7dq80gtp271.jpg) ](https://i.redd.it/ee7dq80gtp271.jpg) This is a big part of the problem IMO. It’s difficult to be liberated and have agency if you must be chauffeured around because every destination is accessible only by automobile. Scheduling becomes much more necessary since two friends getting together means coordinating not only their schedules but their parents’ as well. The same goes for the elderly, who are infantilized in dormitories with ersatz town centers, they get shuttled to the “real” mall once a week after they’re no longer able to drive a car. This is less a factor in European and Asian cities, but I posit that it’s significant part of the situation in North America. If kids can’t get around on their own just to see their friends or to buy a candy bar at the 7-Eleven they’re not getting any of the experience that’s necessary to be a thoughtful family member, voter, or school board member. Instead they have to do pretty much all their growing up between age 16 and 18, which is too fast. Allow them to actually participate in their world and the liberation will follow from that. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2023, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/childrens-lib-and-the-status-of-minors/983350/51 "2023-05-01T22:11:09Z")
> [@jjakucyk](#): > > Nowadays parents are being arrested for letting their children walk to school or to the park. Even if that sort of pearl-clutching were to stop, kids can’t walk or bike to the park when it’s been moved five miles away and specifically designed not to connect to nearby neighborhoods by anything other than a lengthy highway with no sidewalks or bike paths. I understand that is the case in many places - but not in my neighborhood/city. As my wife and I walk our dog, we pass plenty of schools/parks/stores… And when I bike with my sister, there are convenient routes past every busy street/highway/train track several suburbs in every direction. I am appalled at the laws prohibiting kids from doing various things alone. Kids are not supposed to be left alone until well after the age our kids gave up babysitting. One of the things I am most proud of about my daughter is the extent to which she practices “free range” parenting. I’m sure many folk think her 7 yr old ought not walk/bike by herself to see if her friends want to play… ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2023, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/childrens-lib-and-the-status-of-minors/983350/52 "2023-05-01T22:16:41Z")
> [@Dinsdale](#): > > I understand that is the case in many places - but not in my neighborhood/city. Not in mine either . I let my kids be independent but if we had lived in the suburbs where my nieces and nephews live - well, I would have been driving them , too ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2023, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/childrens-lib-and-the-status-of-minors/983350/53 "2023-05-01T22:20:24Z")
> [@TokyoBayer](#): > > So what does this look life in real life? > > How old are you suggesting? 16? 14? 12? 10? 8? 6? 4? 2? (or the odd years) > > What do you specifically mean by “making their vote known without their parents’ interpretation”? I’m not suggesting how old-- That’s the whole point. If a three-year-old goes to the polling place and says they want to vote, they can vote. They might need assistance from a volunteer at the polling place, because they’re probably illiterate, but then, that’s true of some adults, too. The assistance just can’t come from their parents. > [@jjakucyk](#): > > Nowadays parents are being arrested for letting their children walk to school or to the park. Cite please? ---
**Author:** ![jjakucyk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/3d9bf3/32.png) [@jjakucyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjakucyk)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2023, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/childrens-lib-and-the-status-of-minors/983350/54 "2023-05-01T22:41:49Z")
> **[Suburban mom handcuffed, jailed for making 8-year-old son walk half a mile home](https://reason.com/2022/11/16/suburban-mom-jailed-handcuffed-cps-son-walk-home/)** > > Heather Wallace was prosecuted for child endangerment after her 8-year-old son walked half a mile home through the Waco, TX suburbs. > **[Florida mom arrested after letting 7-year-old walk to the park alone | CNN](https://www.cnn.com/2014/07/31/living/florida-mom-arrested-son-park/index.html)** > > After letting her 7-year-old son walk from their home to a park to play, a Florida mother faces up to five years in jail on a child neglect charge. > **[Parents in trouble again for letting kids walk alone](https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2015/04/13/parents-investigated-letting-children-walk-alone/25700823/)** > > Police, Children's Protective Services hold onto youngsters for hours without telling parents. > **[Connecticut parents arrested for letting kids, ages 7 and 9, walk to Dunkin'...](https://reason.com/2023/01/30/dunkin-donuts-parents-arrested-kids-cops-freedom/)** > > "I have never felt threatened by a single person in this town until meeting those officers and the social worker." > **[Parents investigated for neglect after letting kids walk home alone](https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/education/maryland-couple-want-free-range-kids-but-not-all-do/2015/01/14/d406c0be-9c0f-11e4-bcfb-059ec7a93ddc_story.html)** > > The Montgomery County parents say they saw it as a moment of independence for their kids, ages 10 and 6, but that authorities viewed it much differently. [https://www.freerangekids.com/mom-charged-with-neglect-for-making-her-kids-walk-to-school/](https://www.freerangekids.com/mom-charged-with-neglect-for-making-her-kids-walk-to-school/) ---
**Author:** ![nearwildheaven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/90db22/32.png) [@nearwildheaven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nearwildheaven)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2023, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/childrens-lib-and-the-status-of-minors/983350/55 "2023-05-01T22:45:53Z")
When I was a kid, we would go to my maternal grandmother’s house almost every weekend, which meant (among other things) that my sibs and I could not participate in outside activities. When I was 11, she sold her house and moved to our city, to a senior living complex where she lived until the day she died 15 years later. I’m sure that someone, probably my dad, sat my mom down and said something like, “NWH is going into junior high pretty soon, and she is NOT going to put up with this. I know we’re in charge, she isn’t, but think about it.” ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2023, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/childrens-lib-and-the-status-of-minors/983350/56 "2023-05-01T23:21:16Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > I’m not suggesting how old-- That’s the whole point. If a three-year-old goes to the polling place and says they want to vote, they can vote. T No insult intended, but that strikes me as a ridiculous idea, and I can’t think of any societal advantage to such a system. Unless I’m misunderstanding what you propose. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2023, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/childrens-lib-and-the-status-of-minors/983350/57 "2023-05-01T23:45:05Z")
I think that the societal drawbacks of setting an age limit to vote are worse than the drawbacks of not setting an age limit to vote. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2023, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/childrens-lib-and-the-status-of-minors/983350/58 "2023-05-01T23:50:23Z")
> [@Dinsdale](#): > > No insult intended, but that strikes me as a ridiculous idea, and I can’t think of any societal advantage to such a system. The current political system strongly favors older people. Given current age demographics and voting patterns, allowing anyone who asks to vote to actually vote won’t make much of a difference in election outcomes. But would help instill a habit of voting. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2023, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/childrens-lib-and-the-status-of-minors/983350/59 "2023-05-02T01:01:48Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > I think that the societal drawbacks of setting an age limit to vote are worse than the drawbacks of not setting an age limit to vote. One major drawback is that a child’s understanding of how a functioning municipality works mostly comes from watching the Paw Patrol protect Adventure Bay. If I treated my children simply by what they considered “fair”, they would never go to school, never do homework, sit on their ass all day watching TV or playing with Lego, eat candy for breakfast lunch and dinner, so on and so forth. If explaining things to my kids is more expedient to get them to comply with their obligations and responsibilities, that’s great. But “because I say so” is a perfectly valid reason. Sometimes they have to do stuff or not do stuff because it’s good for them in the long run. Treating children like adults isn’t really “fair” to them anyway. That’s why we have child labor laws, statutory rape laws, limitations on minors entering into contracts, fighting in the military, so on and so forth. Do we coddle our children these days a bit too much? Perhaps. I walked a half mile back and forth to school every day (both ways, through six feet of snow, on one leg) when I was my kid’s age. You can’t do that now. Even if I wanted to, the school wouldn’t release them without a care giver. Is that better? I don’t know. Everyone romanticizes how kids “learned responsibility and risk management” from being sent our all day into the neighborhood to peddle around on their bikes until the streetlights came on. But in my day kids would also get bored and throw rocks through windows at a construction site or have to deal with bullies and other troublemakers. And if the old drug awareness promos were to be believed, there were these guys who just used to hand out free drugs on the playground. ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2023, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/childrens-lib-and-the-status-of-minors/983350/60 "2023-05-02T01:54:48Z")
Those of y’all who think that if children could choose, they would choose to eat candy, stay home from school, and so forth should really make a stronger effort to remember being ten. And I’m with Chronos on the voting. But I’d definitely start with including the kids on matters that directly affect them. Hiring decisions regarding the teachers. Curriculum choices. Rules of conduct on campus and in the classroom. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/childrens-lib-and-the-status-of-minors/983350.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/childrens-lib-and-the-status-of-minors/983350.md?page=4)