# Children's Property Rights **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [January 10, 2008, 9:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/childrens-property-rights/432965 "2008-01-10T09:12:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Strain\_of\_Thought](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3be4f8/32.png) [@Strain\_of\_Thought](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Strain_of_Thought)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2008, 9:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/childrens-property-rights/432965/1 "2008-01-10T09:12:22Z")
So I saw this story: [http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080109/ap\_on\_fe\_st/odd\_car\_ad](http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080109/ap_on_fe_st/odd_car_ad) Briefly, a mom sold her 19-year-old son’s car when she found alcohol in it, through a snarky newspaper ad. The article purports to be about tough-love parenting, but it raises some really interesting questions about property rights. The article doesn’t say, but I would assume that for the mother to sell her ‘son’s’ car so summarily, the title would have to actually be in her name. But a car is still a major piece of property, and a parent’s ability to dispose of it with impunity, especially when the child is no longer a minor, seems to come close to crossing some sort of line. Some people would argue a ‘her house, her rules’ position, but I can’t believe that children simply have no property rights. Can the mother sell his electronics? His clothes? Titles don’t exist for minor appliances or other personal possesions. If she gives him an allowance, and he uses the allowance to buy something, does he actually own it? If he was still seventeen and she’d put the car’s title in his name- or if he’d bought the car himself using money from whatever source- could she still sell it by virtue of being his custodian? ---
**Author:** ![WILLASS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/54ee81/32.png) [@WILLASS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WILLASS)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2008, 9:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/childrens-property-rights/432965/2 "2008-01-10T09:40:36Z")
That is an insane overreaction, are a lot of Americans this puritanical about alcohol use? I know he’s 2 years underage but my Dad (and lot’s of peoples parents I know) would allow us to drink a little bit at say 16. ---
**Author:** ![Strain\_of\_Thought](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3be4f8/32.png) [@Strain\_of\_Thought](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Strain_of_Thought)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2008, 10:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/childrens-property-rights/432965/3 "2008-01-10T10:22:19Z")
Well, I had no ancestors in this country before 1950, but ‘we’ did enact prohibition for something like 20 years at the cost of devastating local economies dependant on alcohol production and enabling unimaginably rampant organized crime and widespread political corruption, so I’d say _yes_, a lot of Americans are that puritanical. More to the point, the trend in this country for the past twenty years has been towards villifying youth. Generally, adolescents are seen as being extremely suggestable, devoid of any self-control, and inclined to random acts of violence. They are treated accordingly, and react as expected. The typical situation is something like what happened in my state: funding was stopped for public driver’s education classes, and when automobile accidents involving new drivers spiked, legislation passed creating bureaucratic obstacles and operating restrictions for teenagers to ‘protect’ them. The ironic result is that the new rules tend to _even further_ reduce the amount of driving experience teenagers have when they start driving regularly. ---
**Author:** ![pasunejen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/58956e/32.png) [@pasunejen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pasunejen)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2008, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/childrens-property-rights/432965/4 "2008-01-10T12:59:45Z")
Children don’t have property rights to family (i.e. the parents’) property . Which, reading between the lines, it sounds like this car was. I know that was the situation in my family: “This is your car to drive, but we set the rules for driving it, and we have the right to do with it whatever we damn please if the situation changes.” They could, and did, take the keys away for long periods of time if I violated their conditions for driving. I don’t have the answer to the GQ part of this, but it might be interesting to see a thread like it in GD. ---
**Author:** ![Cub\_Mistress](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea666f/32.png) [@Cub\_Mistress](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cub_Mistress)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2008, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/childrens-property-rights/432965/5 "2008-01-10T13:19:31Z")
[QUOTE=pasunejen] Children don’t have property rights to family (i.e. the parents’) property . Which, reading between the lines, it sounds like this car was. I know that was the situation in my family: “This is your car to drive, but we set the rules for driving it, and we have the right to do with it whatever we damn please if the situation changes.” They could, and did, take the keys away for long periods of time if I violated their conditions for driving. I don’t have the answer to the GQ part of this, but it might be interesting to see a thread like it in GD. [/QUOTE] Title to the cars that our children drove were in our names for several reasons including insurance purposes. As it was explained to me, when they were still minors, they couldn’t get separate insurance anyway as we were legally responsible for them. Then, while they were still in school, it was much cheaper to stay on our insurance and we felt it was our responsibility to make sure they stayed insured. Our son traded his vehicle about a year after he joined the Air Force, so the second vehicle was titled in his name. We made over the title to our daughter’s car to her when she turned 21 and got married. It seemed like a logical time to do so. The parent in the OP might just be reacting to the alcohol issue itself, or reacting to the legal liability she has if he kills ( or otherwise injures) someone while driving while drinking. I’ve always heard that children do not actually own their possessions, but IANAL. I have, however, seen lists of the children’s toys, shoes and clothes divvied up during divorce proceedings. They actually listed which parent got the Legos and which parent got the Barbie Dreamhouse. ---
**Author:** ![muldoonthief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldoonthief/32/3188_2.png) [@muldoonthief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muldoonthief)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2008, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/childrens-property-rights/432965/6 "2008-01-10T14:13:11Z")
[QUOTE=WILLASS] That is an insane overreaction, are a lot of Americans this puritanical about alcohol use? I know he’s 2 years underage but my Dad (and lot’s of peoples parents I know) would allow us to drink a little bit at say 16. [/QUOTE] A lot of Americans are really, really intolerant of drunk driving. Given that it was booze in the car, and that no alcohol had been specifically identified as a deal breaker with the son at the time the car was purchased, I’d say it was a totally appropriate reaction. ---
**Author:** ![Gfactor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9de053/32.png) [@Gfactor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gfactor)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2008, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/childrens-property-rights/432965/7 "2008-01-10T14:26:05Z")
First problem: He ain’t a minor. > [@](#): > > 599.1 Period of minority — exception for certain inmates. > The period of minority extends to the age of eighteen years, but all minors attain their majority by marriage. > A person who is less than eighteen years old, but who is tried, convicted, and sentenced as an adult and committed to the custody of the director of the department of corrections shall be deemed to have attained the age of majority for purposes of making decisions and giving consent to medical care, related services, and treatment during the period of the person’s incarceration. [http://nxtsearch.legis.state.ia.us/NXT/gateway.dll?f=templates&fn=default.htm](http://nxtsearch.legis.state.ia.us/NXT/gateway.dll?f=templates&fn=default.htm) Second problem: Mom bought the car. > [@](#): > > She says she set two rules when she bought the car at Thanksgiving: No booze, and always keep it locked. [http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080109/ap\_on\_fe\_st/odd\_car\_ad](http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080109/ap_on_fe_st/odd_car_ad) It seems to me that in this case the only real legal questions are whether the car was intended as a gift, and whether the gift was subject to a divesting condition–use of alcohol. Donative transfers are generally effective upon delivery. If she made an unconditional gift to the kid, selling the car over his objection is stealing, justified or not. If she intended the car to remain her property and let him use it, or if the gift was truly conditional, it gets more complicated. ---
**Author:** ![Cub\_Mistress](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea666f/32.png) [@Cub\_Mistress](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cub_Mistress)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2008, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/childrens-property-rights/432965/8 "2008-01-10T14:34:21Z")
[QUOTE=Gfactor] First problem: He ain’t a minor. [http://nxtsearch.legis.state.ia.us/NXT/gateway.dll](http://nxtsearch.legis.state.ia.us/NXT/gateway.dll)? f=templates&fn=default.htm [/QUOTE] Very true, but the title to the car could still have been in the parent’s name. ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2008, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/childrens-property-rights/432965/9 "2008-01-10T14:41:19Z")
[QUOTE=WILLASS] That is an insane overreaction, are a lot of Americans this puritanical about alcohol use? I know he’s 2 years underage but my Dad (and lot’s of peoples parents I know) would allow us to drink a little bit at say 16. [/QUOTE] There’s no need for being puritanical about alcohol abuse. The booze was found _in the car_. That’s a serious misdemeanor by itself in nearly every jurisdiction, and a violation of common sense throughout the known universe. Parents were absolutely correct in this case. The kid (who is actually 19 and should be mature enough to deal with this in the first place) agreed to the rule and broke it. ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2008, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/childrens-property-rights/432965/10 "2008-01-10T14:42:48Z")
The only thing I can add to this is that in 2001 I left home at the age of 17, and at that time I was told that legally I had every right to go back into that house and get my stuff – clothing, CDs, books, whatever had been considered ‘‘mine’’ – and that there wasn’t anything my parents could do about it. I was offered a police escort if necessary. That was _before_ I was considered legally an adult. That was for the state of Michigan, FWIW. So at least in this state, minors do have some degree of rights with regard to personal property. The car, however, was in my mother’s name, so I did not have legal access to that until it was in my own name. ---
**Author:** ![Santo\_Rugger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e95f7d/32.png) [@Santo\_Rugger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Santo_Rugger)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2008, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/childrens-property-rights/432965/11 "2008-01-10T14:55:30Z")
When I was growing up and my parents bought a new car, and “gave” me their old one, they made it very clear it was still their car. Painfully clear. When I moved away to college, they bought me a truck. As long as I stayed in school, it was mine. A few months ago, after about 6 or 7 years of use, I sold it, and they let me keep the cash. I’d venture to say that since the conditions were set, he performed a breach of contract, and the mother was within her rights to take the car away. It looks like the general consensus of posters, as well as those who responded to the ad, agree that she was within her rights. I wonder if any detractors would feel the same way if she simply grounded him for a month. [QUOTE=friedo] There’s no need for being puritanical about alcohol abuse. The booze was found _in the car_. That’s a serious misdemeanor by itself in nearly every jurisdiction, and a violation of common sense throughout the known universe. \ [/QUOTE] How is the booze being _in the car_ different from it being _not in the car_? It doesn’t make a lick of difference, unless it was open. ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2008, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/childrens-property-rights/432965/12 "2008-01-10T15:09:20Z")
[QUOTE=Santo Rugger] How is the booze being _in the car_ different from it being _not in the car_? It doesn’t make a lick of difference, unless it was open. [/QUOTE] I assumed that it was an open container in the car, but it turns out the article doesn’t say if it was open or not. ---
**Author:** ![Gfactor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9de053/32.png) [@Gfactor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gfactor)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2008, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/childrens-property-rights/432965/13 "2008-01-10T15:33:24Z")
[QUOTE=olivesmarch4th] So at least in this state, minors do have some degree of rights with regard to personal property. [/QUOTE] It’s murky just about everywhere. > [@](#): > > Because custody imparts control, a natural or adoptive parent also has a right to direct many aspects of a child’s life, including schooling, religious training, and control of the child’s property and earnings. [http://leg.mt.gov/content/committees/interim/2005\_2006/child\_fam/PARENT%20AND%20CHILD%20LEGAL%20MEMO.pdf](http://leg.mt.gov/content/committees/interim/2005_2006/child_fam/PARENT%20AND%20CHILD%20LEGAL%20MEMO.pdf) Yes. Minors can own property. But parents have the right to control the property. Does that right extend to the power to sell the property? Sure. Alternatively, could the parents remove the license plate from the car and confiscate the kid’s drivers’ license? You bet. Can the parent sell the property and spend the money on hookers and blow? _See, e.g._, > [@](#): > > (a) Parents are the joint natural guardians of their minor children, and are equally and jointly charged with their care, nurture, welfare, education and support and also with the care, management and expenditure of their estates. Each parent has equal powers, rights and duties with respect to the custody of each of their minor children and the control of the services and earnings of each minor child; provided, that so much of the net income of each minor child as may be necessary may be expended by a parent (without the necessity of court authorization) for the child’s care, maintenance and education. Funds of a minor held by a guardian shall not be expended to relieve or minimize the obligation of the parent or parents to support the minor. [http://www.state.tn.us/tccy/tnchild/34/34-1-102.htm](http://www.state.tn.us/tccy/tnchild/34/34-1-102.htm) Could **olivesmarch4th** ’s parents have legally prevented her from removing her possessions from their home without a court order? Possibly, but the police would have guns and stuff, so it probably wouldn’t come to that. ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2008, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/childrens-property-rights/432965/14 "2008-01-10T16:21:44Z")
Is the drinking age federally mandated nationwide at 21 years old now? (I thought I heard that it was…) [National Minimum Drinking Age Act - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Minimum_Drinking_Age_Act) (hmmm.) If so, the mom finding a(n open) container of alcohol in the car can jump to a reasonable (though not ironclad) conclusion that her son/daughter was driving while under the influence, and consuming alcohol while being underage. Assuming that the title to the vehicle is in her name, if anything bad happens under these circumstances, she might be held financially responsible for the fallout. I am going to guess that, if the son tried to take his mom to court over the sale of the vehicle, a jury (or a judge, if no jury is involved) is going to feel sympathetic towards the mom in this case. (Dunno if that sympathy will actually influence the decision. Sometimes it will, sometimes it won’t.) ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2008, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/childrens-property-rights/432965/15 "2008-01-10T16:27:45Z")
Iowa: [http://www.youthrights.org/dastatelist.php](http://www.youthrights.org/dastatelist.php) (with links) > [@](#): > > - No one under the age of 21 is allowed to consume or posses alcohol, unless at a private home when the parent or guardian gives it to his/her child or ward and the said parent or guardian is present (supervising). Also anyone under the age of 21 can not drive any motor vehicle with a BAC of .02 or higher. For anyone 21 years of age or older may not drive if they have a BAC of .10 or higher. ---
**Author:** ![muldoonthief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldoonthief/32/3188_2.png) [@muldoonthief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muldoonthief)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2008, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/childrens-property-rights/432965/16 "2008-01-10T16:38:05Z")
[QUOTE=mlees] I am going to guess that, if the son tried to take his mom to court over the sale of the vehicle, a jury (or a judge, if no jury is involved) is going to feel sympathetic towards the mom in this case. (Dunno if that sympathy will actually influence the decision. Sometimes it will, sometimes it won’t.) [/QUOTE] Don’t forget too, that the no longer a minor issue cuts both ways. If the title is in the son’s name, and he protests when mom sells it, mom is perfectly within her legal rights to say “Fine - you’re an adult. Keep the car, but you have 24 hours to get out. Find another place to live, buy your own food, take care of yourself. We’ll send you a birthday card.” ---
**Author:** ![Si\_Amigo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/si_amigo/32/2877_2.png) [@Si\_Amigo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Si_Amigo)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2008, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/childrens-property-rights/432965/17 "2008-01-10T17:01:07Z")
[QUOTE=muldoonthief] If the title is in the son’s name, and he protests when mom sells it, mom is perfectly within her legal rights to say "Fine - you’re an adult. Keep the car . . . " [/QUOTE] Uh, if mom’s sells a car that is titled in his name she is not within her legal rights. In fact she has to commit a forgery to sell a car that has someones elses name on the title. She could be arrested for fraud. Obviously the car was in her name. He was given conditional use and violated the conditions. Life’s tough that way. Good for her. ---
**Author:** ![muldoonthief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldoonthief/32/3188_2.png) [@muldoonthief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muldoonthief)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2008, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/childrens-property-rights/432965/18 "2008-01-10T17:08:02Z")
[QUOTE=Si Amigo] Uh, if mom’s sells a car that is titled in his name she is not within her legal rights. In fact she has to commit a forgery to sell a car that has someones elses name on the title. She could be arrested for fraud. Obviously the car was in her name. He was given conditional use and violated the conditions. Life’s tough that way. Good for her. [/QUOTE] Fair enough. Let me rephrase my last post as “If he refuses when mom tells him he has to sell the car, she’s within her rights to…” ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2008, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/childrens-property-rights/432965/19 "2008-01-10T17:18:11Z")
[QUOTE=Strain of Thought] If he was still seventeen and she’d put the car’s title in his name- or if he’d bought the car himself using money from whatever source- could she still sell it by virtue of being his custodian? [/QUOTE] \*Can \*a minor title a car? I know a minor can’t sign a legally binding contract like a car loan, but I don’t know what happens if he walks into the Used Car Lot with $8,000 in cash from his pizza delivery gig. ---
**Author:** ![Gfactor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9de053/32.png) [@Gfactor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gfactor)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2008, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/childrens-property-rights/432965/20 "2008-01-10T17:31:36Z")
[QUOTE=WhyNot] \*Can \*a minor title a car? I know a minor can’t sign a legally binding contract like a car loan, but I don’t know what happens if he walks into the Used Car Lot with $8,000 in cash from his pizza delivery gig. [/QUOTE] That’s going to vary among states. Here is an answer for Arizona: > [@](#): > > Question: Can a minor have a car title under their name? > > Answer: After researching this question and discussing it with analysts at the Arizona Department of Transportation Motor Vehicle Division (MVD) we have concluded that there is no law that prohibits a minor from holding title to a vehicle. > > However, all vehicles must be insured if they are operated on Arizona streets or highways. A minor cannot enter into a binding contract and, thus, insurance companies will not enter into a contract with a minor to insure a vehicle. MVD advises us that some insurance companies will cover the vehicle by entering into a contract with a person who is not the owner, thus, a minor/owner might be able to have their car insured if the parent entered into the insurance contract for them. > > Another option is Arizona Revised Statute 28-4084 which allows a $40,000.00 certificate of deposit to be posted to cover the financial responsibility requirements rather than having an insurance policy to insure the vehicle. There is no age limit for depositing the certificate of deposit in lieu of insurance. [http://www.lawforkids.org/speakup/view\_question.cfm?id=84&topic=Family](http://www.lawforkids.org/speakup/view_question.cfm?id=84&topic=Family) Also, minors cannot disaffirm contracts for necessaries. [http://www.illinoislegalaid.org/index.cfm?fuseaction=home.dsp\_content&contentID=2638](http://www.illinoislegalaid.org/index.cfm?fuseaction=home.dsp_content&contentID=2638) While the linked resource points out that cars are usually held not to be necessaries, legally mandated insurance might be different. BTW, the plunking down of 8K for a car is just as much a contract as signing a car loan. If it’s not a necessary, the kid can avoid that contract. It gets fun when he damages the car and then wants to avoid the contract. But suppose grandma buys him a car. Then there’s no contract for him to avoid. He has a car and he needs to document his ownership of it. Can he? It seems he can, at least in some places. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/childrens-property-rights/432965.md?page=2)