# Chilvary is SO dead... **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 10, 2001, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chilvary-is-so-dead/86651 "2001-10-10T20:23:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Eternal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ecb155/32.png) [@Eternal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eternal)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2001, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chilvary-is-so-dead/86651/21 "2001-10-10T21:39:09Z")
I imagine they weren’t helping because they were all trying to build up the nerve, and the necessary 'tude, to go over there and play the knight in shining armor, seduce you with their knowledge and charm, and then finally sleep with you. ---
**Author:** ![Podkayne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/edb3f5/32.png) [@Podkayne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Podkayne)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2001, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chilvary-is-so-dead/86651/22 "2001-10-10T21:46:22Z")
Well, dammit, I had a real snotty come-back all typed out, and then on preview I saw **LaurAnge’s** post, and I realized she said exactly what I said, said it more succinctly, and without profanity or belittling the OP. So I’m just gonna shut up. BTW, of you’re keeping count, **lezlers** , I am “a female.” (But being called “a female” is a pet peeve of mind. It makes me feel like a puppy or a lab rat or something. I’d rather be called a woman.) ---
**Author:** ![Stiletto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a4c791/32.png) [@Stiletto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stiletto)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2001, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chilvary-is-so-dead/86651/23 "2001-10-10T21:52:47Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by LaurAnge \* > \*\ ***Men** helping **women** out of “chivalry” sucks. In my opinion, that’s one gender difference that really doesn’t need to exist anymore. > \*\* **LaurAnge** , I respectfully disagree. _Chivalry_ per se, is a _code of behavior_. It’s not a value system that automatically discriminates between the sexes. Like **Esprix** , I’m in the SCA. Like **Sauron** , the idea of chivalry is a very important part of my life. I don’t consider it condescending or discriminatory to do things for women, specifically because they are women. The idea is to respect them. Do I do you a disservice because I did something nice for you because it was ‘chivalrous’? If you think so, **LaurAnge** , I’d love to know your reasoning. -Stil _A truce between the sexes? Are you out of your goddamn mind? What else is there to distract us all from onrushing death? Television?_ -Jake Stonebender Time Travelers Strictly Cash Spider Robinson ---
**Author:** ![Helen\_s\_Eidolon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Helen\_s\_Eidolon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Helen_s_Eidolon)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2001, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chilvary-is-so-dead/86651/24 "2001-10-10T21:53:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Podkayne \* > \*\*Well, dammit, I had a real snotty come-back all typed out, and then on preview I saw **LaurAnge’s** post, and I realized she said exactly what I said, said it more succinctly, and without profanity or belittling the OP. > \*\* And I can’t tell you how much restraint it took. But thank you. ---
**Author:** ![Helen\_s\_Eidolon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Helen\_s\_Eidolon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Helen_s_Eidolon)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2001, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chilvary-is-so-dead/86651/25 "2001-10-10T21:58:29Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Stiletto \* > **The idea is to respect them. Do I do you a disservice because I did something nice for you because it was ‘chivalrous’? If you think so, LaurAnge, I’d love to know your reasoning.** Yes, actually, I believe you would be doing me a disservice, and I do have a reasoning, even if it is one many don’t like. There is, of course, the traditional argument that helping women specifically denotes an inferiority on our part in not being able to do it ourself. Sure, it’s possible. But most people I have encountered who are chivalrous do it for the same reason you do, out of respect and politeness. Here’s my beef with that: I want gender **equality**. I want people to be just as polite and nice to women as to men. I think it does the feminist cause a terrible disservice to ask for equal treatment, equal rights, equal pay, and yet expect to have doors held open for us just because we are women. So and answer is that while you do not do **me** a disservice, you disrespect a cause I believe in: equality. ---
**Author:** ![Sauron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce7236/32.png) [@Sauron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sauron)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2001, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chilvary-is-so-dead/86651/26 "2001-10-10T22:09:05Z")
Personally, I believe women as a whole are better than men as a whole. Dunno why, and I can’t quantify that for you. So if it helps, you can view my door-opening antics as a form of obeisance, rather than denigration. And to resurrect an old quote that’s been used many times: I don’t hold a door open for you because you’re a lady. I hold a door open for you because I’m a gentleman. ---
**Author:** ![THespos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8c91f0/32.png) [@THespos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/THespos)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2001, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chilvary-is-so-dead/86651/27 "2001-10-10T22:09:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by LaurAnge \* > \*\*I think it does the feminist cause a terrible disservice to ask for equal treatment, equal rights, equal pay, and yet expect to have doors held open for us just because we are women. So and answer is that while you do not do me a disservice, you disrespect a cause I believe in: equality. \*\* See? This is why I stopped. Furthermore, I no longer pay any mind to glares I get from women on the subway when I’m sitting and they’re standing. You can’t have it both ways. BTW folks, this is the Pit. You won’t score any points for restraint here. ---
**Author:** ![Helen\_s\_Eidolon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Helen\_s\_Eidolon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Helen_s_Eidolon)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2001, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chilvary-is-so-dead/86651/28 "2001-10-10T22:14:31Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by THespos \* > \*\*See? This is why I stopped. > > Furthermore, I no longer pay any mind to glares I get from women on the subway when I’m sitting and they’re standing. You can’t have it both ways. > > BTW folks, this is the Pit. You won’t score any points for restraint here. \*\* I thought you said you stopped because you got yelled at by radical feminists. I have never yelled at anyone for opening the door for me (except my boyfriend, who does it specifically to bug me) because I believe in politeness, but I reserve the right to an opinion. You’re right we can’t have it both ways. That’s the point. I argue about this with both men **and** women. And while I might not score any points, I might not say things which I don’t mean in they way they are taken, things I’d regret later or gratuitous things that might hurt someone. So there you go. (And **Zette** , aren’t you proud of my change of attitude on the topic? ;)) ---
**Author:** ![Crown\_Prince\_of\_Irony](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ed655f/32.png) [@Crown\_Prince\_of\_Irony](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crown_Prince_of_Irony)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2001, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chilvary-is-so-dead/86651/29 "2001-10-10T22:21:29Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Eternal \* > \*\*I imagine they weren’t helping because they were all trying to build up the nerve, and the necessary 'tude, to go over there and play the knight in shining armor, seduce you with their knowledge and charm, and then finally sleep with you. \*\* Or, more likely, as in my experience, “they were all trying to build up the nerve, and the necessary 'tude”, to go over there and risk having their frigging head chewed off by some I-don’t-need-the-help-of-a-MAN-because-I’m-a-womyn feminist. Not that I have a problem with women like that; if you feel you don’t need to be helped, I’m cool with that. Just don’t rip me a new one just because my Southern grandparents taught me to be polite to women because they’re the “fairer sex”. \ Listen, I know women aren’t any fairer, weaker, or more incompetent than men. I know this objectively, but 15+ years of old-fashioned Southern manners being drilled into my head has given me the instinct to hold doors open for women, children, and the elderly, to offer help to said types when they are in apparent need of it, etc. I’m now nearly 30, but the instinct is still there. I grew up in CA, but Grandma and Grandpa came from AR and OK, respectively. I now live in Portland, OR and spent years in Eugene, OR, two towns with forward-thinking, diverse populations. Also, two towns with verrry high poulations of vociferous feminists, not that I have a prob with that. But I, upon simply holding doors open for said feminists, have been: cussed out, glared at, and in one case, physically accosted by a woman who thought it was worth the effort to go round the door, push me out of the way so I couldn’t hold the door open, then open the door her own damn womyn-empowered-braless-clog-wearing self. Your very fucking welcome, lady. I realize that chivalry is not necessary in today’s day and age, but I’m being fucking polite, and you’ve got to stomp on my gesture to prove nothing more than a fucking _political_ point. Or maybe you’re just an asshole (Goddess forbid I call you a bitch; you might just point out your “Bitch and Proud Of It” bumper sticker, because of course you’re going to have copious amounts of bumper stickers on your '85 Volvo sedan, in the back seat of which is a Blue Heeler/Border Collie mix wearing a hemp rope collar). Whew… I’ve gotten to the point that I only hold doors open or the elderly, because at least they appreciate it (I don’t even hold doors open for kids anymore, the ungrateful little Limp-Bizkit-listening, impolite heathens, but that’s a thread for another day). \ That being said, I hope this gives you an idea of why noone offered help, **lezlers**. Not only is chivalry dead, but it took common civility and graciousness with it. ---
**Author:** ![Dale\_The\_Bold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/41988e/32.png) [@Dale\_The\_Bold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dale_The_Bold)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2001, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chilvary-is-so-dead/86651/30 "2001-10-10T22:22:58Z")
That group of guys who quietly observed are more of a problem than you might think. For me, I’d help anyway, but one thing that may cause me to hesitate would be that you might get the wrong idea. A guy who is lustfully staring at you and then approaches may very well be trying to hit on you. I would rather help someone just to help them without them thinking I’m some kind of freak or pervert looking for something in return. I have been “scolded” by women for this as well. But the men never think I’m hitting on them, which is good. 🙂 Chivalry will never die, but it has been murdered in many people’s hearts. -PS. Most of the people I have helped have been old ladies. I hope they’re not thinking I should get something in return. ---
**Author:** ![Beagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/85f322/32.png) [@Beagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beagle)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2001, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chilvary-is-so-dead/86651/31 "2001-10-10T22:25:57Z")
I don’t see anything about helping someone remove an oil cap in the [Chivalric Code](http://www.vertetsable.com/magna/chivalry.htm). Maybe “largesse?” Anyway, this is a classic guaranteed-to-get-blown-off-in-an-aggrivating-way situation. Many guys, myself included, have gone over to help women in a similar situation and gotten something like this: “what, you think **because I am a woman** I can’t do this? You think I am helpless and cannot…blah…blah…” I prefer the withering look and being ignored to “the lecture” myself. But, they have a point. I would never go over to another guy and ask him if he needs help getting his oil cap off. That sounds vaguely homoerotic. Anyway, I guess I could have just said, “ **Thespos** hit on a problem some men run into.” I still do stuff “chivalrous” in nature, mostly doors (the basics) but I don’t go running to do so. Some women open doors also, so I agree with the whole gender-neutral courtesy aspect of this. No need to resort to a medieval code that gave us the Crusades. > [@](#): > > Thou shalt not recoil before thine enemy. Thou shalt make war against the Infidel without cessation, and without mercy. Sound familiar? Very much like the radical Islamic fundamentalism OBL believes in. ---
**Author:** ![Necros](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/necros/32/11086_2.png) [@Necros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Necros)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2001, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chilvary-is-so-dead/86651/32 "2001-10-10T22:30:15Z")
\*\*LaurAnge{/b] said: > [@](#): > > I think it does the feminist cause a terrible disservice to ask for equal treatment, equal rights, equal pay, and yet expect to have doors held open for us just because we are women. So and answer is that while you do not do me a disservice, you disrespect a cause I believe in: equality. I’m glad you’re being consistent. Me, I hold doors open for everyone. Sometimes I’m there five minutes holding doors for people. I suspect most people on this board are the same way. If I blow a tire, or have to add oil, I do it. I don’t expect someone to come along and help me out. If they do, that’s great. But I don’t expect to spare myself the difficulty and dirt in favor of someone doing it for me. As far as offering to help, I’d offer regardless of the sex of the person in distress. As **Zette** said: It’s not a gender thing, it’s a human thing. We all need to help each other. I myself can’t stand women who have the whole attitude that I am obligated to help them just because they’re female. ---
**Author:** ![Stiletto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a4c791/32.png) [@Stiletto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stiletto)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2001, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chilvary-is-so-dead/86651/33 "2001-10-10T22:32:46Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by LaurAnge \* > I think it does the feminist cause a terrible disservice to ask for equal treatment, equal rights, equal pay, and yet expect to have doors held open for us just because we are women. So and answer is that while you do not do **me** a disservice, you disrespect a cause I believe in: equality. \*\* Well, first off, I’ll once again agree with **Sauron**. Aside from individual biological differences, there is nothing that a man can do that a woman can’t do. I.e. there may be things that a _certain_ woman can’t do…but the same thing is just as likely to be true for a man. These are individual differences, not applicable to sex. I certainly can’t disagree with your wish for equality. I am just as saddened and upset by the lack of it as you are, I assure you. But converse to my point above, there is one thing that women can do that men **cannot**. And that’s pregnancy, and birth of a child. In that regard, if in no other, women are superior. For men, procreation is an hour of fun. For some women, it’s nine months of hell. YMMV, but in that one respect, women are superior to men. They may be in other ways, as well, but that’s more a matter of individual differences, again, than division by sex. Now, as I stated above, this is just my personal belief. But for that reason alone, women deserve a greater amount of respect and consideration. So I guess we will just have to agree to disagree. I’m certainly not going to stop following my own code just because some people think it’s a _disservice_ to the women’s movement for equality. Nor do I even remotely expect that my view will affect yours in the slightest. What I do expect is this: despite the fact that you view these things as a disservice, you admitted that they were done out of respect and politeness, at least in most cases. So, ladies, if this is how you feel, fine, I will respect it. But those of us who feel this way would really appreciate it if you could be polite about it in return. Don’t hand us our heads. Just say ‘No, thank you’. It’s perfectly sufficient. -Stil ---
**Author:** ![THespos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8c91f0/32.png) [@THespos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/THespos)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2001, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chilvary-is-so-dead/86651/34 "2001-10-10T22:34:43Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by LaurAnge \* > **I thought you said you stopped because you got yelled at by radical feminists.** Allow me to rephrase… Replace “See? This is why I stopped.” with “See? People can get offended, which I why I stopped.” Nope, I’m not calling you a radical feminist, **LaurAnge**. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2001, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chilvary-is-so-dead/86651/35 "2001-10-10T22:36:31Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Beagle \* > \*\*I don’t see anything about helping someone remove an oil cap in the [Chivalric Code](http://www.vertetsable.com/magna/chivalry.htm). Maybe “largesse?” \*\* I think that would fit under the “Thou shalt repect all weaknesses, and shalt constitute thyself the defender of them.” > [@](#): > > I imagine they weren’t helping because they were all trying to build up the nerve, and the necessary 'tude, to go over there and play the knight in shining armor, seduce you with their knowledge and charm, and then finally sleep with you. Interestingly, Eternal, that was one of the big purposes of the code of chivalry. A lot of the “be kind to women” texts in the middle ages come from books about courtship. It’s a way to seduce a woman. ---
**Author:** ![Cyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a88e4f/32.png) [@Cyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cyn)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2001, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chilvary-is-so-dead/86651/36 "2001-10-10T22:37:02Z")
It’s the staring that would bug me—that’s just rude, coming from males or females. I hope chivalry is not dead and I do my part—I greet every kindness with a smile, even if I don’t “need” help. I am a female, a woman, a California girl. ---
**Author:** ![Marlitharn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/779978/32.png) [@Marlitharn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marlitharn)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2001, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chilvary-is-so-dead/86651/37 "2001-10-10T23:21:58Z")
I had a flashback while reading this thread… A few years ago, I blew out a tire on Highway 54. No biggie; wonder of wonders, I actually possessed a jack and a spare with air in it. Cars blow by, I jack up my car, get the old tire off, fit the new one into place, and begin tightening lug nuts. About then a semi pulled onto the shoulder in front of my car, and a big burly truck drivin’ man got out, walked over to me, and stood there watching me with his hands in his pockets. “Hey,” he said. “Hello,” I said. “Got a blowout?” he said, awing me with his supernatural powers of observation. “Uh, yeah,” I said. He continued to stand there with his hands in his pockets, leading me to believe he was some deviant freak who got his jollies playing pocket pool while watching greasy twenty-somethings handle tire irons. And lo, he spoke again: “Most girls cain’t change a tire,” he informed me. “Yeah, well, I used to be a man,” I said. I almost felt sorry for the poor guy, he seemed kind of down that he couldn’t come charging in on his big white Peterbilt and save the day for me. ---
**Author:** ![capacitor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e47774/32.png) [@capacitor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/capacitor)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2001, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chilvary-is-so-dead/86651/38 "2001-10-10T23:28:01Z")
Chilvary is dead. I killed him. He is decomposing in my locker.😉 Chilvary reflects a pandering, patronizing, pity attitude, which, frankly, I don’t think I can afford to implement in this day and age. I am in the first generation in the history of the world that takes it for granted that I have to compete against women for jobs. I do the actions occasionally, but I have to pick my spots, as many others do. You see, I am no knightly prince charming, and I know that I will have to work ten times as hard to have half the chance of wooing a woman as some charmer do. I find in my exprerience that chilvary is not appreciated by the recipient. Chilvary also does not take into account that sometimes, men need women to help us out. Third problem–the first two rules of the Decalogue it requires fealty and total obedience to the Church. I no longer belive that Churches should have ultracontrol of our lives. What about me? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2001, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chilvary-is-so-dead/86651/39 "2001-10-10T23:34:04Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by capacitor \* > \*\* > Third problem–the first two rules of the Decalogue it requires fealty and total obedience to the Church. I no longer belive that Churches should have ultracontrol of our lives. What about me? \*\* Then you’d make a really bad medeval European knight. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![bagkitty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7ab992/32.png) [@bagkitty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bagkitty)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2001, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chilvary-is-so-dead/86651/40 "2001-10-10T23:40:12Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by lezlers \* > **…in a skirt and heels with the hood of my car up, struggling to get the oil cap off** So? Oh, I get it, dressing this way is supposed to be a sign you are mechanically inept, isn’t it? Is this a private code, or am I supposed to assume everyone in a skirt and heels in mechanically inept? Damn, looks like I have some unlearning to do. Chivalry is dead, I killed it with a verb. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chilvary-is-so-dead/86651.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chilvary-is-so-dead/86651.md?page=3)