# China BILLS the US for keeping the spy plane?? WTF? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 7, 2001, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/china-bills-the-us-for-keeping-the-spy-plane-wtf/71602 "2001-07-07T17:01:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 11\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![London\_Calling](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@London\_Calling](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/London_Calling)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2001, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/china-bills-the-us-for-keeping-the-spy-plane-wtf/71602/21 "2001-07-08T12:56:54Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by China Guy \* > /begin quote/A State Department official, asking not to be identified, said the expenses were exaggerated. > > This came a day after Rear Adm. Craig Quigley, a Pentagon (news - web sites) spokesman, said the administration was prepared to reimburse China for reasonable costs./end quote/ > \*\* I think it’s a good thing to see the Chinese taking this Capitalistic approach. Seems they’re getting the hang of things as they’ve got a healthy profit margin built into their financial analysis. BTW, what are they charging for accommodation and all meals - is it dorm rooms only or can you upgrade ? ---
**Author:** ![China\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2001, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/china-bills-the-us-for-keeping-the-spy-plane-wtf/71602/22 "2001-07-08T13:03:54Z")
Ya, communist my ass. Depends on if the room comes with a “customer service representative” or not. Hainan is quite famous for it’s “hospitality suites”. Yessirree Bob, you could run up quite a whoppingly big bill if you used all of the amenities available. But I posted this before, the waves all over Hainan suck. They are wimpy little Atlantic wading pool waves. And in Haikou, the waves are pathetic. Fucking torture if you ask me. Let’s get the Hague involved in this. What I really liked was that the air force personnel had to pay for visa’s to get out of China. For those of you that remember my pit rant against American Citizen Services, well, suffice to say I don’t get that kind of consular help. ---
**Author:** ![TomH](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/90db22/32.png) [@TomH](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TomH)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2001, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/china-bills-the-us-for-keeping-the-spy-plane-wtf/71602/23 "2001-07-08T13:14:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Airman Doors, USAF \* > I’ll tell you what. You drive around my neighborhood, I’ll decide to wreck into you, and my family can hold you captive for a few days and then charge you to get your car back, which, of course, I wrecked. You left out the bit where I come and leave my car in your drive without permission. ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2001, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/china-bills-the-us-for-keeping-the-spy-plane-wtf/71602/24 "2001-07-08T13:40:24Z")
OK. I need to be perfectly clear on this. Did the United States violate China’s territorial airspace? Did we break any international laws? If we did, then I suppose we should pay. If not, as far as I’m concerned, China can get fucked. **TomH** , if the plane was rammed in international airspace, then China should be obligated to pay reparations, not the other way around. Somehow, you guys are thinking that the US were the bad guys in this. I’m not buying that. Not until I see the proof. ---
**Author:** ![China\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2001, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/china-bills-the-us-for-keeping-the-spy-plane-wtf/71602/25 "2001-07-08T14:08:40Z")
Airman Doors, no one has shown me in several previous threads where the Chinese signed an internationally recognized treaty that said air space where the collision occured was international. The Chinese claim it for their own. Now, we can debate whether or not the Chinese territorial claim is “reasonable” or not, and I would probably have to chime in on the “unreasonable” side of the arguement, but that is not really relevant. Viet Nam, Philippines, Malaysia, China and Taiwan (I think Brunei does not claim the waters but I could be wrong) all claim sovereignity over this area. Now, AFAIK, according to the US understanding of international treaty/law that the US is a signatory to, that was international airspace. But, again AFAIK, the Chinese have never been a signatory to that same international treaty/law. The problem is that the US sez it was international air space and the Chinese say it wuz Chinese air space. There is no “higher court” to take this to and no MUTUALLY signed agreement. Stalemate. Both sides can believe what they will. Personally, I think the Chinese could have been much more statesman-like and mapped out a moral high ground. But they didn’t and it’s another lost opportunity to prove themselves worthy at the big boys table. ---
**Author:** ![TomH](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/90db22/32.png) [@TomH](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TomH)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2001, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/china-bills-the-us-for-keeping-the-spy-plane-wtf/71602/26 "2001-07-08T14:11:53Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Airman Doors, USAF_ > OK. I need to be perfectly clear on this. Did the United States violate China’s territorial airspace? We do not know whether the spy plane was in Chinese airspace before, or at the time of, the collision. The Chinese claim it was, the US claims it wasn’t. It certainly entered Chinese airspace in order to land. > [@](#): > > Did we break any international laws? Again, we do not know. But it is worth bearing in mind that the aircraft was spying on China, an action which there are good _prima facie_ reasons to view as hostile. > [@](#): > > TomH, if the plane was rammed in international airspace, then China should be obligated to pay reparations, not the other way around … I’m not buying that. Not until I see the proof. If the Chinese airforce had deliberately rammed the US plane in international airspace, then I would agree. But since it appears that the collision was an accident (unless it was a very elaborate way of committing suicide on the part of the Chinese pilot) and neither side has admitted liability, the question of fault remains open, as does the question of whether or not the US plane was in Chinese airspace. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2001, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/china-bills-the-us-for-keeping-the-spy-plane-wtf/71602/27 "2001-07-08T15:04:34Z")
> [@](#): > > You left out the bit where I come and leave my car in your drive without permission. The US pilot did not radio the emergency (which was wrong) but we were allowed to land there. We wanted to get our plane and crew back - China didn’t allow it. ---
**Author:** ![Soccerbaby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7cd45c/32.png) [@Soccerbaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Soccerbaby)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2001, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/china-bills-the-us-for-keeping-the-spy-plane-wtf/71602/28 "2001-07-08T15:59:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by China Guy \* > \*\*Personally, I think the Chinese could have been much more statesman-like and mapped out a moral high ground. But they didn’t and it’s another lost opportunity to prove themselves worthy at the big boys table. \*\* And with that I think you’re 100% correct. They had a golden opportunity to change the perception of China for the better and they made it worse. **China Guy** , I hope you realize that this is not an attack on China, per se. I’d feel the same way no matter what country was involved. But nonetheless, they blew it. To address the spyplane thing- So what? Clearly the US thought they were clear of China’s airspace. They were breaking no laws that they knew of, and got hijacked. I find that to be unacceptable in any context. Should we now expect our satellites to be shot out of orbit? Hell, maybe they’ll go after all American citizens, since they’re all spies too. :rolleyes: The Chinese in this instance chose to show that were not going to be trifled with. I have no problem with that. They just picked a piss-poor way of doing it and made it worse with their incredibly stupid posturing. And of course, given my career choice, you didn’t really think that I’d side with the Chinese on this, did you? Next time that could be me on that plane, since that is approximately what my job is going to be. The way I see it, China was in the wrong. Maybe it was done for the right reasons, but the end result was unaccepable. ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2001, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/china-bills-the-us-for-keeping-the-spy-plane-wtf/71602/29 "2001-07-08T16:03:01Z")
Ahem…I’m a total idiot. The above post from Soccerbaby was mine. I forgot to log my sister out. I feel sheepish now. If it’s important, could a mod please fix that for me? If not, just letting you know. ---
**Author:** ![TomH](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/90db22/32.png) [@TomH](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TomH)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2001, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/china-bills-the-us-for-keeping-the-spy-plane-wtf/71602/30 "2001-07-08T18:03:42Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Airman Doors USAF / Soccerbaby_ > To address the spyplane thing- So what? Clearly the US thought they were clear of China’s airspace. They were breaking no laws **that they knew of** , and got hijacked. I find that to be unacceptable in any context. (Emphasis mine) _Ignorantia legis neminem excusat_. I think if you’re going to fly around on the edge of other countries’ airspace spying on them, the onus is on you to ensure that you are complying with international law. ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2001, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/china-bills-the-us-for-keeping-the-spy-plane-wtf/71602/31 "2001-07-08T20:18:03Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by TomH \* > \*\*_Ignorantia legis neminem excusat_. I think if you’re going to fly around on the edge of other countries’ airspace spying on them, the onus is on you to ensure that you are complying with international law. \*\* And I agree with that, but you’ve never made it clear yet whether China adhered to the same laws as us. We were presumably adhering to the laws that are internationally recognized, but apparently China never troubled themselves to do the same. You know, at this point this argument is going around in circles. China may have violated the law, but they don’t recognize that law, whereas we do, and may have violated it anyway, in which case I don’t really see any satisfactory conclusion here. So I’ll just agree to disagree with you on this one. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/china-bills-the-us-for-keeping-the-spy-plane-wtf/71602.md?page=1)