# China Controls Taiwan?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/china-controls-taiwan/774654
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [December 14, 2016, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/china-controls-taiwan/774654 "2016-12-14T02:33:53Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@Jinx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jinx)
#### Post date: [December 14, 2016, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/china-controls-taiwan/774654/1 "2016-12-14T02:33:53Z")
On the CBS Morning Show this morning, they ran a story on how Trump really pissed off the leadership of Red China by talking directly to the leadership of Taiwan without going through proper channels (i.e., going to those in power in Red China). I thought Taiwan was its own independent (and Democratic) country? Since when do matters have to be cleared through Red China first? And, is this why it seems products made in Taiwan seemed to have disappeared nowadays? Help me understand.
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### Author:  [@Declan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Declan)
#### Post date: [December 14, 2016, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/china-controls-taiwan/774654/2 "2016-12-14T02:57:37Z")
> [@Jinx](#):
>
> On the CBS Morning Show this morning, they ran a story on how Trump really pissed off the leadership of Red China by talking directly to the leadership of Taiwan without going through proper channels (i.e., going to those in power in Red China). I thought Taiwan was its own independent (and Democratic) country? Since when do matters have to be cleared through Red China first? And, is this why it seems products made in Taiwan seemed to have disappeared nowadays? Help me understand.
China mainland conciders Taiwan (Formosa) to be a province and does not liked to be bypassed, palms have to be greased and those palms are in Bejing. For the most part, Taiwan goes yeah yeah, what ever, but for the most part is fine with deferring to the mainland capital.
Declan
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### Author:  [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)
#### Post date: [December 14, 2016, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/china-controls-taiwan/774654/3 "2016-12-14T03:07:52Z")
The pretense is that there is one China; the mainland believing that Taiwan is simply a province while Taiwan believing the legitimate government of all of China is in Taipei.
BTW, so it’s a bit of a faux pas for Donald Trump to refer to Tsai Ing-wen as the “president of Taiwan”.
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### Author:  [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)
#### Post date: [December 14, 2016, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/china-controls-taiwan/774654/4 "2016-12-14T03:09:30Z")
The People’s Republic of China (“mainland China”) does not recognize that the island variously known as Formosa or Taiwan is legitimately a separate country (the “One China” policy). This is ok with the people of Taiwan, because officially, they don’t think they are either. Of course, they think that their government is the legitimate, “official” government of all of China, a fact that the government of the People’s Republic doesn’t accept is true, for a variety of reasons (not the least of which is the obvious factual nature of who controls the mainland).
Since both agree that there is only “one China”, then obviously the government in Beijing doesn’t accept that the people who run the putative Republic of China are an actual government entitled to interact with foreign powers. This means that, in the eyes of the powers that be in the PRC, the person claiming to be the “President” of the “Republic of China” is not a head of state.
Now, when heads of state, like the President of the United States, talk to each other directly, that’s a big thing. Among other things, it’s viewed as an indication that the two nations view each other as legitimate nations, and that they are each legitimate heads of state. You might imagine that this doesn’t sit well with the government of the PRC, if/when the President of the United States talks to the President of the Republic of China as if that latter person is, indeed, a president of a country.
As a general rule, if a country wishes to establish, or continue, formal diplomatic relations with the People’s Republic of China, that country must disavow any formal recognition of the Republic of China. Which means that, since 1979, when the US decided to formally recognize the PRC as the legitimate government of “China”, no President has ever talked to the President of the Republic of China directly. Neither has any President-elect. You can maybe see why this is thus a “big thing”.
Of course, then President-elect Trump went even further, and tweeted (I believe) that the “one China” policy was stupid, and that there are two Chinas, or something to that regard. This of course, is nothing more than a direct kick in the stomach to the PRC. Interestingly, it will be curious if this President manages to get Taiwan’s government to finally give up their own adherence to the “one China” idea…
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### Author:  [@Punoqllads](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Punoqllads)
#### Post date: [December 14, 2016, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/china-controls-taiwan/774654/5 "2016-12-14T03:10:12Z")
[Since 1979](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiwan%E2%80%93United_States_relations#1979.E2.80.93present). Since you asked.
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### Author:  [@Okrahoma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Okrahoma)
#### Post date: [December 14, 2016, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/china-controls-taiwan/774654/6 "2016-12-14T03:11:32Z")
> [@DSYoungEsq](#):
>
> As a general rule, if a country wishes to establish, or continue, formal diplomatic relations with the People’s Republic of China, that country must disavow any formal recognition of the Republic of China. Which means that, since 1979, when the US decided to formally recognize the PRC as the legitimate government of “China”, no President has ever talked to the President of the Republic of China directly. Neither has any President-elect. You can maybe see why this is thus a “big thing”.
Saying that the king was naked was also a “big thing”.
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### Author:  [@Punoqllads](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Punoqllads)
#### Post date: [December 14, 2016, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/china-controls-taiwan/774654/7 "2016-12-14T03:13:18Z")
> [@DSYoungEsq](#):
>
> Of course, then President-elect Trump went even further, and tweeted (I believe) that the “one China” policy was stupid, and that there are two Chinas, or something to that regard. This of course, is nothing more than a direct kick in the stomach to the PRC. Interestingly, it will be curious if this President manages to get Taiwan’s government to finally give up their own adherence to the “one China” idea…
The current President of Taiwan is DPP. They reject the “One China Principle”.
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### Author:  [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)
#### Post date: [December 14, 2016, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/china-controls-taiwan/774654/8 "2016-12-14T03:14:19Z")
> [@Jinx](#):
>
> On the CBS Morning Show this morning, they ran a story on how Trump really pissed off the leadership of **Red** China by talking directly to the leadership of Taiwan without going through proper channels (i.e., going to those in power in **Red** China). I thought Taiwan was its own independent (and Democratic) country? Since when do matters have to be cleared through **Red** China first? And, is this why it seems products made in Taiwan seemed to have disappeared nowadays? Help me understand.
(my bolding)
Why do you keep saying this? 😕
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### Author:  [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)
#### Post date: [December 14, 2016, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/china-controls-taiwan/774654/9 "2016-12-14T03:17:43Z")
I have to wonder if China and Taiwan both realise how unconventional this all looks to many outsiders?
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### Author:  [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)
#### Post date: [December 14, 2016, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/china-controls-taiwan/774654/10 "2016-12-14T03:18:22Z")
> [@DSYoungEsq](#):
>
> Interestingly, it will be curious if this President manages to get Taiwan’s government to finally give up their own adherence to the “one China” idea…
Very doubtful. China (the big one) has said there are two things which would cause them to immediately “reunify” Taiwan back by military means. One would be if Taiwan declared it was a separate country. (The other is if Taiwan works on developing nuclear weapons.)
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### Author:  [@Punoqllads](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Punoqllads)
#### Post date: [December 14, 2016, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/china-controls-taiwan/774654/11 "2016-12-14T03:23:00Z")
> [@Martini\_Enfield](#):
>
> I have to wonder if China and Taiwan both realise how unconventional this all looks to many outsiders?
Forget it, Jake. It’s China.
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### Author:  [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)
#### Post date: [December 14, 2016, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/china-controls-taiwan/774654/12 "2016-12-14T03:25:32Z")
> [@Martini\_Enfield](#):
>
> I have to wonder if China and Taiwan both realise how unconventional this all looks to many outsiders?
S Korea - N Korea
Rep Ireland - N Ireland
Falklands/Malvinas part of the UK
Berlin Wall
Isolation of Cuba
There are all manner of long-standing political arrangements in the world that seem “unconventional” in different ways. You need to understand the history.
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### Author:  [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)
#### Post date: [December 14, 2016, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/china-controls-taiwan/774654/13 "2016-12-14T03:25:40Z")
> [@Punoqllads](#):
>
> Forget it, Jake. It’s China.
The crazy thing is I totally understand how the scenario has come about and why it’s the way it is - but I also think it’s probably time the two of them sat down with a nice beverage and had a chat to work out how to amicably resolve it.
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### Author:  [@Declan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Declan)
#### Post date: [December 14, 2016, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/china-controls-taiwan/774654/14 "2016-12-14T03:31:41Z")
> [@Ambivalid](#):
>
> (my bolding)
>
> Why do you keep saying this? 😕
Historically since the revolution and up to the present, its accurate.
Red China aka Chi-coms, was an accurate denoter of China Big C, when we recognized both govt’s. It’s since fallen out of favor as a descriptor, but it does not make it less accurate. As well, it has the unintended consequence of dating the author, not too long ago, Peking was still the capital, until it was changed to Bejing
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### Author:  [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)
#### Post date: [December 14, 2016, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/china-controls-taiwan/774654/15 "2016-12-14T03:31:53Z")
> [@Martini\_Enfield](#):
>
> The crazy thing is I totally understand how the scenario has come about and why it’s the way it is - but I also think it’s probably time the two of them sat down with a nice beverage and had a chat to work out how to amicably resolve it.
They did. The agreement was that they would not resume killing each other, commerce and travel would proceed normally, but Taiwan would not seek official status as an independent nation.
Then they ordered pizza.
ETA: sorry, it was a Wednesday, so it was probably Chinese food.
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### Author:  [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)
#### Post date: [December 14, 2016, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/china-controls-taiwan/774654/16 "2016-12-14T03:41:37Z")
> [@Martini\_Enfield](#):
>
> I have to wonder if China and Taiwan both realise how unconventional this all looks to many outsiders?
Why should that bother China and Taiwan? Like a marriage, if it works for them, the fact that it looks “unconventional” to “many outsiders” is the outsider’s problem, not theirs.
> [@Martini\_Enfield](#):
>
> The crazy thing is I totally understand how the scenario has come about and why it’s the way it is - but I also think it’s probably time the two of them sat down with a nice beverage and had a chat to work out how to amicably resolve it.
As Riemann points out, they have amicably resolved it. Donald Trump is apparently unhappy with the resolution, but maybe he should just mind his own business. Whoever is or is not the legitimate president of China, it certainly isn’t Donald.
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### Author:  [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)
#### Post date: [December 14, 2016, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/china-controls-taiwan/774654/17 "2016-12-14T03:42:20Z")
> [@Riemann](#):
>
> They did. The agreement was that they would not resume killing each other, commerce and travel would proceed normally, but Taiwan would not seek official status as an independent nation.
>
> Then they ordered pizza.
>
> ETA: sorry, it was a Wednesday, so it was probably Chinese food.
The thing is, now Taiwan is starting to make strides in electronics manufacturing and eSports presence, I’m getting the impression the PRC would like to make sure Taiwan doesn’t start getting too many ideas.
For example, in one major recent eSports final, Taiwan was referred to as “Chinese Taipei”. Obviously it is (although which “China” is open to debate), but it was pretty obvious the distinction was being made for political reasons.
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### Author:  [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)
#### Post date: [December 14, 2016, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/china-controls-taiwan/774654/18 "2016-12-14T04:22:57Z")
To answer the OP, China “controlling Taiwan” is all about de facto vs. diplomatic formalities. In every practical sense, Taiwan governs and exists independently. It doesn’t pay taxes to China, it has its own government, currency, military, a separate constitution, a separate language-writing system with different characters, its own flag, competes in international sports separate from China’s team delegations, etc.
> [@UDS](#):
>
> Why should that bother China and Taiwan? Like a marriage, if it works for them, the fact that it looks “unconventional” to “many outsiders” is the outsider’s problem, not theirs.
If a forced/arranged marriage by analogy, maybe.
> [@Little\_Nemo](#):
>
> Very doubtful. China (the big one) has said there are two things which would cause them to immediately “reunify” Taiwan back by military means. One would be if Taiwan declared it was a separate country. (The other is if Taiwan works on developing nuclear weapons.)
Three other potential casus belli - although surely of the “including but not limited to” sort - include Taiwan indefinitely avoiding unification, Taiwan entering into a defense pact with a foreign country, and Taiwan entering into internal chaos or anarchy.
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### Author:  [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)
#### Post date: [December 14, 2016, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/china-controls-taiwan/774654/19 "2016-12-14T04:24:24Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#):
>
> it’s a bit of a faux pas for Donald Trump to refer to Tsai Ing-wen as the “president of Taiwan”.
I don’t see how. Technically, Tsai is the president of Taiwan. Unless Trump’s mistake was not adding “province” to the end of Taiwan. Should he have called her president of Taiwan province?
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### Author:  [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)
#### Post date: [December 14, 2016, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/china-controls-taiwan/774654/20 "2016-12-14T04:29:42Z")
> [@Martini\_Enfield](#):
>
> The thing is, now Taiwan is starting to make strides in electronics manufacturing and eSports presence, I’m getting the impression the PRC would like to make sure Taiwan doesn’t start getting too many ideas.
>
> For example, in one major recent eSports final, Taiwan was referred to as “Chinese Taipei”. Obviously it is (although which “China” is open to debate), but it was pretty obvious the distinction was being made for political reasons.
Taiwan has been an economic powerhouse for decades, and Taiwan has been competing as _Chinese Taipei_ since 1984 - yes, quite obviously for political reasons.
> **[Chinese Taipei at the Olympics](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_Taipei_at_the_Olympics)**
>
> Taiwan, officially the Republic of China (ROC), competes as "Chinese Taipei" (TPE) at the Olympic Games since 1984. Athletes compete under the Chinese Taipei Olympic flag instead of the flag of the Republic of China; for any medal ceremony, the National Flag Anthem of the Republic of China is played instead of the National Anthem of the Republic of China.
> Taiwanese athletes won their first Olympic medal in 1960, and their first gold medal in 2004. Taiwan achieved their highest total medal count...
Anyway, I’m sure all 1.4 billion concerned are gratified that both Donald Trump and you feel it’s high time that this all got sorted sorted out more sensibly.
You should understand that a strong element in Taiwan still also believe that Taiwan is a province, and that China is one nation including the province of Taiwan. What we call “China” is routinely referred to as “the mainland” in Taiwan. There _is_ also a movement for independent statehood in Taiwan, but there is no clear consensus.
> **[Political status of Taiwan](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_status_of_Taiwan#Position_of_the_Republic_of_China_.28ROC.29)**
>
> Lai Ching-te (DPP)
> Hsiao Bi-khim (DPP)
> Cho Jung-tai (DPP)
If Taiwan were being economically disadvantaged, or did not have the _de facto_ status of an independent nation, or if Chinese people could not easily travel to visit relatives, this might be a more pressing problem. But there seems no compelling reason to rock the boat unless there is a clear consensus at least among _the people of Taiwan_ for change. But even that does not exist, let alone what mainland China wants.
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