# China Controls Taiwan? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 14, 2016, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/china-controls-taiwan/774654 "2016-12-14T02:33:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2016, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/china-controls-taiwan/774654/21 "2016-12-14T04:37:11Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > I don’t see how. Technically, Tsai is the president of Taiwan. Unless Trump’s mistake was not adding “province” to the end of Taiwan. Should he have called her president of Taiwan province? Isn’t she technically either the President of the Republic of China, or not a president at all, depending which side of the Taiwan Strait you are on? I don’t think a province has a president. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2016, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/china-controls-taiwan/774654/22 "2016-12-14T04:48:22Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > I don’t see how. Technically, Tsai is the president of Taiwan. Unless Trump’s mistake was not adding “province” to the end of Taiwan. Should he have called her president of Taiwan province? Does Texas have a President? ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2016, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/china-controls-taiwan/774654/23 "2016-12-14T04:48:39Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > You should understand that a strong element in Taiwan still also believe that Taiwan is a province, and that China is one nation including the province of Taiwan. I’m not sure which data you get “strong element” from, or how you define “strong,” but the consistent and clear trend over the past decades has been 1) increasing sentiment that Taiwan is de facto independent, 2) low support for unification, 3) increasing self-identification as “Taiwanese” with only about 3 percent of folks self-identifying as “Chinese.” However “strong” the element may be that Taiwan is part of China, the sentiment that it is _not_ is significantly stronger yet. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2016, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/china-controls-taiwan/774654/24 "2016-12-14T04:56:34Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > Does Texas have a President? This comparison would make sense if Texas had been part of Mexico (or another country) from 1895-1945, if Texas maintained its own separate military, separate government, etc., if Texas maintained diplomatic relations with 21 allies that recognized it as a country, if Texas competed in the Olympics under a different sports banner/delegation than the USA, if there was a likelihood of war breaking out between Texas and the USA, if Texas had held 6 presidential elections of its own dating back to 1996, if Texas had never in de facto/practical terms been under the control of the U.S. government in 121 years, if Texas were a member of the World Health Organization separate from the USA, if Gregory Abbott’s title were “president” rather than governor, and if Texas had once been a member of the United Nations until the 1970s. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2016, 4:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/china-controls-taiwan/774654/25 "2016-12-14T04:58:23Z")
Edit: WTO, not WHO. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2016, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/china-controls-taiwan/774654/26 "2016-12-14T05:03:19Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > This comparison would make sense if Texas had been part of Mexico (or another country) from 1895-1945, if Texas maintained its own separate military, separate government, etc., if Texas maintained diplomatic relations with 21 allies that recognized it as a country, if Texas competed in the Olympics under a different sports banner/delegation than the USA, if there was a likelihood of war breaking out between Texas and the USA, if Texas had held 6 presidential elections of its own dating back to 1996, if Texas had never in de facto/practical terms been under the control of the U.S. government in 121 years, if Texas were a member of the World Health Organization separate from the USA, if Gregory Abbott’s title were “president” rather than governor, and if Texas had once been a member of the United Nations until the 1970s. You asked what Trump’s mistake was. All of this is irrelevant from the point of view of China. From China’s viewpoint, Taiwan is a province and doesn’t have a President. Calling the ruler a President de facto recognizes it as a separate country rather than a province. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2016, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/china-controls-taiwan/774654/27 "2016-12-14T05:09:22Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > I don’t see how. Technically, Tsai is the president of Taiwan. Unless Trump’s mistake was not adding “province” to the end of Taiwan. Should he have called her president of Taiwan province? As noted, technically Tsai is the President of the Republic of China. And technically the Republic of China encompasses all of China (at least that’s the official position). That’s one reason why Trump’s call was such a diplomatic tempest. He wasn’t simply implying Tsai was the President of Taiwan. If he was recognizing Tsai as a national leader, then he was denying that Xi is a national leader. It would be the equivalent of Xi calling up Hillary Clinton and telling her he planned on recognizing her as the legitimate President of the United States instead of Trump. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2016, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/china-controls-taiwan/774654/28 "2016-12-14T05:15:27Z")
> [@Declan](#): > > Historically since the revolution and up to the present, its accurate. > > Red China aka Chi-coms, was an accurate denoter of China Big C, when we recognized both govt’s. It’s since fallen out of favor as a descriptor, but it does not make it less accurate. As well, it has the unintended consequence of dating the author, not too long ago, Peking was still the capital, until it was changed to Bejing We (USA) never recognized both governments. “Peking” and “Beijing” are simply two different ways of transliteration the same Chinese word. Your posts aren’t dating you; they’re showing a lack of knowledge of the issues in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![China\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2016, 6:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/china-controls-taiwan/774654/29 "2016-12-14T06:28:08Z")
Communist China is purely ignorance speaking. In many ways, China is much more of a free, wild wild west, unfettered capitalistic society than what we have here in the US of A. In other ways, not so much. Mainland China isn’t going to give up the fiction or otherwise that Taiwan is part of “China”. To do so would legitimize claims to Tibet, Mongolia, Xinjiang and other parts of “mainland China” that comprise half of China’s physical land mass. This is also historically part of Chiang Kai-shek’s fault. When the PRC joined the UN, Taiwan walked out. Thus setting the stage for their is only One China diplomatic circumstance we find ourselves in. For the Chinese on both sides of the Taiwan Straits, it’s a “don’t ask, don’t tell” policy, and President Elect Trump put the world on a path to end that “don’t ask, don’t tell” equivalent fiction. ---
**Author:** ![China\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2016, 6:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/china-controls-taiwan/774654/30 "2016-12-14T06:31:54Z")
> [@Martini\_Enfield](#): > > The thing is, now Taiwan is starting to make strides in electronics manufacturing and eSports presence, I’m getting the impression the PRC would like to make sure Taiwan doesn’t start getting too many ideas. . “Chinese Taipei” has already been addressed. I have to interject. Taiwanese electronics manufacturing moved to China decades ago. Much of the engineering work _may_, and I stress _may_, still be done in Taiwan. But the vast bulk of the factories, even the highest tech ones, are in China. ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2016, 6:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/china-controls-taiwan/774654/31 "2016-12-14T06:59:25Z")
> [@China\_Guy](#): > > Communist China is purely ignorance speaking. In many ways, China is much more of a free, wild wild west, unfettered capitalistic society than what we have here in the US of A. In other ways, not so much. > > Mainland China isn’t going to give up the fiction or otherwise that Taiwan is part of “China”. To do so would legitimize claims to Tibet, Mongolia, Xinjiang and other parts of “mainland China” that comprise half of China’s physical land mass. > > This is also historically part of Chiang Kai-shek’s fault. When the PRC joined the UN, Taiwan walked out. Thus setting the stage for their is only One China diplomatic circumstance we find ourselves in. For the Chinese on both sides of the Taiwan Straits, it’s a “don’t ask, don’t tell” policy, and President Elect Trump put the world on a path to end that “don’t ask, don’t tell” equivalent fiction. Well, it’s not _entirely_ a fiction. Historically, geographically, culturally, etc, Taiwan is indeed a part of China. Unless you subscribe to the view that a state is a wholly artificial fiction created _ex nihilo_, the nation is as good a basis as any other for the state. The Nationalists and the Communists contended for which of them would get to control and characterise the Chinese state; that struggle has ended in a stalemate in which one of them controls the larger part of the state and the other a small part; it suits both of them that this state of affairs should continue, rather than resuming the civil war, or proceeding to a formal division of the state into two states, which has never been the objective of either. ---
**Author:** ![coremelt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@coremelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coremelt)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2016, 7:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/china-controls-taiwan/774654/32 "2016-12-14T07:23:11Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Very doubtful. China (the big one) has said there are two things which would cause them to immediately “reunify” Taiwan back by military means. One would be if Taiwan declared it was a separate country. (The other is if Taiwan works on developing nuclear weapons.) At the moment it is unlikely that China could successfully occupy Taiwan. They’re building up the capability but they just don’t have enough amphibious landing capability right now and Taiwan has indigenously developed hyper sonic anti ship missiles. As you might expect Taiwan has made it rather a priority to develop it’s anti ship capabilty. A defender always has the advantage in amphibious assault, very few landing ships would make it to Taiwan. > **[Hsiung Feng III](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hsiung_Feng_III)** > > The Hsiung Feng III (HF-3; Chinese: 雄風三型; pinyin: Xióngfēng sān xíng, "Brave Wind III") is a medium range supersonic missile with capabilities to destroy both land based targets and naval targets developed by the National Chung-Shan Institute of Science and Technology (NCSIST) in Taiwan. > Initial prototype versions of the missile used the design of an integrated rocket ramjet to achieve supersonic speeds. It uses a solid fuel main booster with two side-by-side solid-propellant jettisonable strap-... > **[Analysis: China Builds Amphibious Capabilities for Taiwan Scenario](https://www.defensenews.com/global/asia-pacific/2016/05/14/analysis-china-builds-amphibious-capabilities-for-taiwan-scenario/)** > > China’s military is expanding its capabilities for an amphibious assault on the self-ruled island of Taiwan. Of course it would be a messy bloody fight, China can certainly hit Taiwan with missiles and bombing runs, but barring China’s use of Nuclear weapons it’s doubtful they could actually successfully land, hold and occupy Taiwan. ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2016, 8:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/china-controls-taiwan/774654/33 "2016-12-14T08:16:40Z")
> [@Declan](#): > > As well, it has the unintended consequence of dating the author, not too long ago, Peking was still the capital, until it was changed to Bejing Only to English speakers. It’s still Peking or Pekin to [much of the rest of the world](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_names_of_Asian_cities_in_different_languages#B). Why the Chinese get so upset when English-speakers say Peking but give a free pass to the French, Germans, Spanish, etc using it is a mystery. Or maybe they told the Chinese to take a hike, it’s their language. It’s normal for foreign capitals to be changed to suit the speaker’s language. We don’t say Firenze for Florence or Munchen for Munich. Go figure. ---
**Author:** ![coremelt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@coremelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coremelt)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2016, 8:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/china-controls-taiwan/774654/34 "2016-12-14T08:31:47Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > That’s one reason why Trump’s call was such a diplomatic tempest. Just to clarify. The US and Taiwan have no formal diplomatic relationships. Instead the functions normally carried out by embassies are carried out by the “American Institute in Taiwan” > **[American Institute in Taiwan](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Institute_in_Taiwan)** > > .mw-parser-output .geo-default,.mw-parser-output .geo-dms,.mw-parser-output .geo-dec{display:inline}.mw-parser-output .geo-nondefault,.mw-parser-output .geo-multi-punct,.mw-parser-output .geo-inline-hidden{display:none}.mw-parser-output .longitude,.mw-parser-output .latitude{white-space:nowrap}25°1′56.81″N 121°32′22.41″E / 25.0324472°N 121.5395583°E / 25.0324472; 121.5395583 > The American Institute in Taiwan (AIT; Chinese: 美國在台協會; pinyin: Měiguó Zài Tái Xiéhuì) is the de facto embassy of the U... And the Taipei Economic and Cultural Representative Office > **[Taipei Economic and Cultural Representative Office](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taipei_Economic_and_Cultural_Representative_Office)** > > The Taipei Economic and Cultural Representative Office (TECRO), also known as Taipei Economic and Cultural Office (TECO), Taipei Representative Office (TRO) or Taipei Mission, is an alternative diplomatic institution serving as a de facto embassy or a consulate of the Republic of China (ROC, commonly referred to as Taiwan) to exercise the foreign affairs and consular services in specific countries which have established formal diplomatic relations with the People's Republic of China (PRC, common... Following the established protocol, Trump should have refused the call and instead communicated indirectly using the above offices as intermediaries. One would hope that a decision to break that protocol would be part of a carefully thought out strategy and not just a “why the hell not” decision. ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2016, 9:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/china-controls-taiwan/774654/35 "2016-12-14T09:58:39Z")
> [@coremelt](#): > > One would hope that a decision to break that protocol would be part of a carefully thought out strategy and not just a “why the hell not” decision. I think it’s refreshing for a politician to make a ‘why the hell not’ decision. No sensible reason not to take the call. Trump surely knew that any umbrage the Chinese might take would quickly pass. As in fact it has: the Chinese are reportedly well pleased with Trump’s choice for ambassador to China. Storm in a teacup. ---
**Author:** ![coremelt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@coremelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coremelt)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2016, 10:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/china-controls-taiwan/774654/36 "2016-12-14T10:05:10Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > I think it’s refreshing for a politician to make a ‘why the hell not’ decision. No sensible reason not to take the call. Trump surely knew that any umbrage the Chinese might take would quickly pass. As in fact it has: the Chinese are reportedly well pleased with Trump’s choice for ambassador to China. > > Storm in a teacup. As a one off you may well be right. However I’m sure I’m not alone in thinking that as a general principle complex decisions of international diplomacy that may have long term economic or military consequences should not be made on a “why the hell not” basis. ---
**Author:** ![penultima\_thule](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/penultima_thule/32/3833_2.png) [@penultima\_thule](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/penultima_thule)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2016, 11:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/china-controls-taiwan/774654/37 "2016-12-14T11:01:08Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > I think it’s refreshing for a politician to make a ‘why the hell not’ decision. Should I push this button? “Why the hell not”. It might come as some surprise but he’s not running a frat party. > [@](#): > > … any umbrage the Chinese might take would quickly pass. As in fact it has: the Chinese are reportedly well pleased with Trump’s choice for ambassador to China . You don’t think something like a national government is incapable of holding pro and con views on the incoming US administration on separate issues/appointments/policies? ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2016, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/china-controls-taiwan/774654/38 "2016-12-14T13:42:12Z")
> [@DSYoungEsq](#): > > The People’s Republic of China (“mainland China”) does not recognize that the island variously known as Formosa or Taiwan is legitimately a separate country (the “One China” policy). This is ok with the people of Taiwan, because officially, they don’t think they are either. Of course, they think that their government is the legitimate, “official” government of all of China, a fact that the government of the People’s Republic doesn’t accept is true, for a variety of reasons (not the least of which is the obvious factual nature of who controls the mainland). This has been addressed, but I will add that as a current resident of Taiwan _no one_ I have talked to believes that they are the legitimate “official” government of China. Zip. The previous president, Ma, stated that but was widely condemned by most people. The demographics of Taiwan are “Chinese Taiwanese” (84%), “mainland Chinese” (14%), and indigenous peoples (2%). “Mainland Chinese” are those who came over in 1949 and their descendants and “Chinese Taiwanese” are those ancestors gave over prior to Taiwan becoming a colony of Japan. There had been great friction between the two groups in the first several decades, with not much intermarriage, but this is changing. A number of my wife’s friends are children of “mixed” marriages. The greatest resistance to independence are from the “mainland Chinese” group in Taiwan. Taiwanese tend to be much less vocal about their beliefs than Americans. I didn’t understand until one of my friends explained the atrocities against the population by the ROC government. He saw a group of people handcuffed together in a long line and forced to walk out into the ocean at gunpoint. Many Taiwanese – understandably – can never forgive the KMT. Long past the time that the ROC army could dream of retaking the mainland, the KMT party maintained the fiction they there were the legitimate rulers of China for a number of reasons besides Chiang Kai-shek’s personal hangups. First, they were still on the UN security council until 1971 and were recognized by the US and Western Countries until the 70s. Another reason is that the (now defunct) National Assembly has members who “represented” districts in China which they had been elected to prior to 1949. Since they couldn’t have new elections, these members continued to “represent” those districts. In reality, this was simply used to maintain political power for the KMT. > [@China\_Guy](#): > > Mainland China isn’t going to give up the fiction or otherwise that Taiwan is part of “China”. To do so would legitimize claims to Tibet, Mongolia, Xinjiang and other parts of “mainland China” that comprise half of China’s physical land mass. This is the real reason. I’ve discussed this issue in depth with a friends who is a member of Taiwan’s foreign service and this is it. China can’t let go because it would add fuel to the claims by people in those areas. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2016, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/china-controls-taiwan/774654/39 "2016-12-14T15:23:29Z")
Sure, the Taiwan situation is complicated and weird and possibly unique in the world. But is it really any more complicated and weird than, say, a sovereign nation composed of fifty different sovereign states (plus change)? Or a nation of which one fraction is a sovereign country, while another fraction is part of a different sovereign country along with three other nations? Or the fact that both of the sovereign countries in the previous example are also among the constituent parts of yet another polity (though one of them is in the process of leaving)? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2016, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/china-controls-taiwan/774654/40 "2016-12-14T16:39:51Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > I think it’s refreshing for a politician to make a ‘why the hell not’ decision. No sensible reason not to take the call. Trump surely knew that any umbrage the Chinese might take would quickly pass. As in fact it has: the Chinese are reportedly well pleased with Trump’s choice for ambassador to China. What did it accomplish? If Trump planned a challenge to China as part of some plan involving future action it’s one thing. (Although I can’t think of any intelligent plan involving us getting into a major confrontation with China.) Otherwise this is just Trump pointlessly annoying the Chinese. Which the Chinese will remember and make sure they pay us back for at some future point. There’s going to be some point in Trump’s administration when he’ll need the Chinese to agree to something. And the Chinese will smile and say, “Remember that phone call?” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/china-controls-taiwan/774654.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/china-controls-taiwan/774654.md?page=3)