# China Controls Taiwan? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 14, 2016, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/china-controls-taiwan/774654 "2016-12-14T02:33:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2016, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/china-controls-taiwan/774654/61 "2016-12-14T21:38:29Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > That’s not even a smidgen of what **Little Nemo** said. > > **aldiboronti** suggested that Obama doing random stuff without thinking would have worked better in Syria than being careful as he was. And that Trump was also doing good by taking random tweet-swipes at China. Or maybe they were malicious instead of random. Either way they were not examples of thoughtful cautious cause-and-effect based thinking. > > **Little Nemo** said that thinking that would work well is as stupid as thinking that a surgeon making random slashes on a patient would work well. Heck it might work! > > It seems pretty clear to me. I guess I don’t see where aldiboronti is saying Obama should do ‘random stuff’(or that the US taking a more active role in Syria would have been ‘random stuff’…or something), so perhaps that’s why the analogy as you are interpreting it doesn’t make sense to me. But I like your interpretation better than thinking that someone believes the actions of Syria and Russia are like a surgeon saving the lives of the Syrian people/patient. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2016, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/china-controls-taiwan/774654/62 "2016-12-14T22:17:27Z")
Guys, maybe we could please get back to the OP, rather than focus on one poorly worded metaphor? ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2016, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/china-controls-taiwan/774654/63 "2016-12-15T00:47:40Z")
There’s a real problem for Taiwan buried in all this. The person who, by taking the call, legitimized the status of the putative “President” of the “Republic of China” is the same person who has publicly questioned the duty of the United States of America to respond according to treaty requirements if the Baltic States are invaded by the Sovie… er, excuse me, Russian Federation. So while we are so busy getting “real” about the situation across the Formosa Strait, one wonders if in the process someone will wake up and decide that the American Public really doesn’t care enough about who governs the island to be willing to risk a nuclear war over China’s effort by force to re-integrate the island? Kind of the kiss of death that President Tsai just got from Mr. Trump… ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2016, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/china-controls-taiwan/774654/64 "2016-12-15T00:50:26Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Whether the RoC likes it or not, Taiwan _is_ independent and has been for generations. Facts is Facts to paraphrase Ellis Parker Butler. > > We really shouldn’t encourage this sort of ostriching. > > I do note that many Presidents have met with the head of Palestine. See my post just above. Poking the PRC with a stick and saying, “Prove it or lose it,” is probably not the best way to deal with the situation… :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2016, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/china-controls-taiwan/774654/65 "2016-12-15T01:24:49Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Whoa…are Syria and Russia really supposed to be the surgeons saving the patients lives in this analogy??? Seriously? Pretty much what LSLGuy wrote. I wasn’t making a specific analogy about Syria or Taiwan or any other foreign policy. The point I was trying to make was that the stakes in foreign relations are usually very high and the people involved should only make thoughtful and well-planned acts and never just try something at random to see what would happen. If you want a Syria-specific example, remember how Kerry screwed up when he made some apparently spontaneous remarks about our policies there. Even something as trivial as nodding your head at the wrong time can have serious consequences. ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2016, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/china-controls-taiwan/774654/66 "2016-12-15T02:11:15Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Historically?:dubious: Not always. China started taking over in 1683 from the Dutch (who took it from the natives), lost control to Japan in 1895, then the Kuomintang (KMT) took over and has held it ever since. > > Since there has been agriculture on Taiwan since 3000 BC, at least, that means that China has controlled Taiwan for about 200 of the last 5000 years. So, historically? \*Not so much. \* You’re only looking at _political_ history there. Hasn’t Taiwan had an ethnically Chinese population and a Chinese culture since, basically, forever? ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2016, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/china-controls-taiwan/774654/67 "2016-12-15T02:18:54Z")
> [@UDS](#): > > You’re only looking at _political_ history there. Hasn’t Taiwan had an ethnically Chinese population and a Chinese culture since, basically, forever? It was inhabited by [Taiwanese aborigines](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiwanese_aborigines) until opened up to Han migration from the mainland after Dutch colonization. ---
**Author:** ![glowacks](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/glowacks/32/5548_2.png) [@glowacks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glowacks)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2016, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/china-controls-taiwan/774654/68 "2016-12-15T04:20:30Z")
Taiwan aborigines are generally considered to be the source of the Polynesian dispersal, since its local dialects display more diversity than the totality of the rest of the languages in its family. Its original natives are not particularly related to Han Chinese, but are Austronesian like the peoples of the Philippines, Malaysia, Indonesia, and Oceania. The Chinese starting coming over in the 17th Century, like Europeans to North America. The aboriginals may be slightly closer in relation to the major portion of the current population than in Australia and North America, but it still was effectively a thorough colonization by a “superior” people in relatively modern times, not an ancient steady diffusion. Interestingly, it wasn’t until the Dutch started to colonize Formosa that the Chinese were interested in it - they just saw it as a land of savages with nothing of interest. > **[Taiwanese indigenous peoples](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiwanese_aborigines)** > > Nationally Recognized > Locally recognized > Unrecognized ---
**Author:** ![China\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2016, 6:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/china-controls-taiwan/774654/69 "2016-12-15T06:27:02Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Whether the RoC likes it or not, Taiwan _is_ independent and has been for generations. Generations? How about some facts? Taiwan was loosely controlled by China before it became a Japanese colony (1895-1945) as spoils from the Sino-Japanese war. Then it was the last military stronghold of the KMT when they lost the Mainland, and not without cowering the local population (learn about the 2-28 incident. My Taiwanese “mother” was a small school girl that witnessed her elementary school teachers getting summarily executed in front of the kids). So at best Taiwan became de facto independent circa1949. De jeure independence would arguably be sometime after that, and many would argue that would have been around 1989 when Chiang Kai-shek’s son, heir, and military dictator Chiang ching-kuo passed on. Taiwan’s government fiction on retaking the mainland ended soon after. Taiwan was still ruled by military law when I first lived there in 1982. That lifted later in the 1980’s. ---
**Author:** ![China\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2016, 6:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/china-controls-taiwan/774654/70 "2016-12-15T06:39:05Z")
> [@DSYoungEsq](#): > > There’s a real problem for Taiwan buried in all this. The person who, by taking the call, legitimized the status of the putative “President” of the “Republic of China” is the same person who has publicly questioned the duty of the United States of America to respond according to treaty requirements if the Baltic States are invaded by the Sovie… er, excuse me, Russian Federation. So while we are so busy getting “real” about the situation across the Formosa Strait, one wonders if in the process someone will wake up and decide that the American Public really doesn’t care enough about who governs the island to be willing to risk a nuclear war over China’s effort by force to re-integrate the island? Kind of the kiss of death that President Tsai just got from Mr. Trump… That or Trump decides that allowing Korea and Japan to have their own nukes instead of relying on the US nuclear umbrella is a good thing. I’ll go out into conspiracy territory, but it is my firm belief that Taiwan has the bomb. Maybe not a lot of bombs, but enough to nuke a couple of Chinese megacities such as my second home of Shanghai. :eek: It is a completely MAD strategy but I’m sure those conversations have been held between Taiwan and China. Why do I say this? You had Chiang Kai-shek and his son Chiang ching-kuo on a small island with a very large belligerent neighbor with nukes across the Taiwan Straits. Taiwan also had 6 nuclear power plants and a very large PhD population in the 1970’s. And was the US’ unsinkable aircraft carrier. And also had close relationship with fellow international pariah States S Africa. It would have been insane for Generallisimo Cash My Check to not have acquired nukes. YMMV. ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2016, 6:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/china-controls-taiwan/774654/71 "2016-12-15T06:54:36Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > It was inhabited by [Taiwanese aborigines](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiwanese_aborigines) until opened up to Han migration from the mainland after Dutch colonization. Ignorance fought, thanks. But my point stands. The current population of Taiwan is overwhelmingly Han Chinese, and this has been so for some centuries. To my mind, that goes a long way towards establishing Taiwan as part of China, ethnically, culturally, linguistically, etc. Which means that “one China” as a political concept isn’t entirely divorced from reality. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2016, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/china-controls-taiwan/774654/72 "2016-12-15T13:17:33Z")
> [@China\_Guy](#): > > I’ll go out into conspiracy territory, but it is my firm belief that Taiwan has the bomb. Maybe not a lot of bombs, but enough to nuke a couple of Chinese megacities such as my second home of Shanghai. :eek: It is a completely MAD strategy but I’m sure those conversations have been held between Taiwan and China. > > Why do I say this? You had Chiang Kai-shek and his son Chiang ching-kuo on a small island with a very large belligerent neighbor with nukes across the Taiwan Straits. Taiwan also had 6 nuclear power plants and a very large PhD population in the 1970’s. And was the US’ unsinkable aircraft carrier. And also had close relationship with fellow international pariah States S Africa. It would have been insane for Generallisimo Cash My Check to not have acquired nukes. YMMV. I don’t know. It’s certainly possible. > [@UDS](#): > > Ignorance fought, thanks. But my point stands. The current population of Taiwan is overwhelmingly Han Chinese, and this has been so for some centuries. To my mind, that goes a long way towards establishing Taiwan as part of China, ethnically, culturally, linguistically, etc. Which means that “one China” as a political concept isn’t entirely divorced from reality. The UK, Canada, Australia, and New Zealand all started as ethnically English with an aborigine population. Why is it that they were allowed independence? ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2016, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/china-controls-taiwan/774654/73 "2016-12-15T17:49:24Z")
> [@China\_Guy](#): > > That or Trump decides that allowing Korea and Japan to have their own nukes instead of relying on the US nuclear umbrella is a good thing. > > I’ll go out into conspiracy territory, but it is my firm belief that Taiwan has the bomb. Maybe not a lot of bombs, but enough to nuke a couple of Chinese megacities such as my second home of Shanghai. :eek: It is a completely MAD strategy but I’m sure those conversations have been held between Taiwan and China. > > Why do I say this? You had Chiang Kai-shek and his son Chiang ching-kuo on a small island with a very large belligerent neighbor with nukes across the Taiwan Straits. Taiwan also had 6 nuclear power plants and a very large PhD population in the 1970’s. And was the US’ unsinkable aircraft carrier. And also had close relationship with fellow international pariah States S Africa. It would have been insane for Generallisimo Cash My Check to not have acquired nukes. YMMV. Not shockingly, the state media in the PRC is beginning to rattle the sabres. [Invade and reunite Taiwan by force: Chinese state media (_HindustanTimes_)](http://www.hindustantimes.com/world-news/invade-and-reunite-taiwan-by-force-chinese-state-media/story-CFoBZRHtyYG1btEZrx52eN.html) ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2016, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/china-controls-taiwan/774654/74 "2016-12-15T18:40:02Z")
> [@UDS](#): > > Ignorance fought, thanks. But my point stands. The current population of Taiwan is overwhelmingly Han Chinese, and this has been so for some centuries. To my mind, that goes a long way towards establishing Taiwan as part of China, ethnically, culturally, linguistically, etc. Which means that “one China” as a political concept isn’t entirely divorced from reality. Same argument Hitler used for the Sudetenland. :dubious: I guess that means America is really part of GB, right? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2016, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/china-controls-taiwan/774654/75 "2016-12-15T19:11:09Z")
> [@UDS](#): > > Ignorance fought, thanks. But my point stands. The current population of Taiwan is overwhelmingly Han Chinese, and this has been so for some centuries. To my mind, that goes a long way towards establishing Taiwan as part of China, ethnically, culturally, linguistically, etc. Which means that “one China” as a political concept isn’t entirely divorced from reality. How does that fact that China and Taiwan have ethnically similar populations mean they should be one country? ---
**Author:** ![usedtobe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ec9cab/32.png) [@usedtobe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/usedtobe)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2016, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/china-controls-taiwan/774654/76 "2016-12-15T22:08:11Z")
No history lesson in this mess? Until 1949, one General Kang Kai-Shek (you do the spelling) ruled China. Mao and his boys were about to overthrow ol’ Jaing. The US did NOT feel like getting into a “Land War in Asia”, and suggested Kiang cut a deal with Mao. He didn’t. Mao overthrew his ass and he and his buddies set up shop on Taiwan (killing a few thousand ethnic Taiwanese in the process). Until Nixon, in 1972, announced that the USA’s version of “One China” was now the Mainland (“Red”) China, the US had held that Chang’s rule of Taiwan was “The One China”. Once the US recognized Beijing as the “One China”, things got better between the two countries. China has maintained that Taiwan is a “Renegade Province” - kinda like the CSA vs USA, but has declined a military operation to put down the rebellion. Now do you see the hornet’s nest Trump just stirred up? That phone call could end up causing China to re-assert rule over the rebel province. ---
**Author:** ![China\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2016, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/china-controls-taiwan/774654/77 "2016-12-16T04:46:10Z")
> [@UDS](#): > > Ignorance fought, thanks. But my point stands. The current population of Taiwan is overwhelmingly Han Chinese, and this has been so for some centuries. To my mind, that goes a long way towards establishing Taiwan as part of China, ethnically, culturally, linguistically, etc. UDS, they may be Han Chinese but the Taiwanese speaking and Hakka speaking population of Taiwan a) generally do not have ties to China nor are in contact with relatives b) don’t speak Mandarin as a first language c) were treated as second class citizens by the Mainlanders. Any Taiwanese speaker born before say 1990 will have first hand experience. You know that first grade kids through the 1970’s were beaten and/or fined money for speaking Taiwanese at school, right? Were humiliated by there Mandarin speaking teachers? d) overwhelmingly don’t want to unite with China It is complicated. The very sharp divide between the Taiwanese and Hakka speakers versus the “Mainlanders” (those that came over in 1949) began to blur in the 1990’s. The population is more mixed as the offspring of mixed marriages between the Taiwanese and Mainlanders are adults and have kids of their own. Taiwanese also learned that kids that spoke Taiwanese first didn’t do as well in the very competitive school environment, and switched to speaking Mandarin to not disadvantage their kids. It was not at all uncommon in the 1980’s outside of the capital, Taipei (which is where the majority of those fleeing the Mainland settled) to find teenagers that could not understand Mandarin much less speak. We’re not talking elderly folks, of which there were a buttload that only understood Taiwanese, but youth and young adults were not uncommon. Which is to say, that a big proportion of the Taiwanese and Hakka speakers will disagree with you that they are culturally or linguistically a part of what you term “Chinese.” ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2016, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/china-controls-taiwan/774654/78 "2016-12-16T04:53:31Z")
> [@UDS](#): > > Ignorance fought, thanks. But my point stands. The current population of Taiwan is overwhelmingly Han Chinese, and this has been so for some centuries. To my mind, that goes a long way towards establishing Taiwan as part of China, ethnically, culturally, linguistically, etc. Which means that “one China” as a political concept isn’t entirely divorced from reality. Is Ireland part of Britain? Ethnically, culturally, linguistically similar, etc. :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2016, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/china-controls-taiwan/774654/79 "2016-12-16T05:11:32Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Is Ireland part of Britain? Ethnically, culturally, linguistically similar, etc. :dubious: Well, there are marked cultural differences. But the main distinction is that the differences between Ireland and Britain are such that the Irish consider themselves to be a distinct nation, and are generally considered by the world at large to be a distinct nation, and they don’t wish to be part of a larger state with Britain and, for the past hundred years or so, mostly haven’t been. Whereas the Taiwanese are Han Chinese, consider themselves to be Han Chinese, are considered by the world at large to be Han Chinese, and mostly haven’t expressed a wish to form a distinct state which is not China, and certainly haven’t taken any steps to do this. The point is, independent statehood is typically something which stems from a sense of distinct nationhood. Thus, the “one China” notion is not a complete fiction, as alleged early in the thread; it’s a political reflection of the reality that Taiwanese and mainland Chinese people do in many ways form a single nation, in ways that the Irish and the English don’t, and never have. ---
**Author:** ![China\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2016, 5:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/china-controls-taiwan/774654/80 "2016-12-16T05:21:05Z")
> [@UDS](#): > > Well, there are marked cultural differences. But the main distinction is that the differences between Ireland and Britain are such that the Irish consider themselves to be a distinct nation, and are generally considered by the world at large to be a distinct nation, and they don’t wish to be part of a larger state with Britain and, for the past hundred years or so, mostly haven’t been. Whereas the Taiwanese are Han Chinese, consider themselves to be Han Chinese, are considered by the world at large to be Han Chinese, and mostly haven’t expressed a wish to form a distinct state which is not China, and certainly haven’t taken any steps to do this. > > The point is, independent statehood is typically something which stems from a sense of distinct nationhood. Thus, the “one China” notion is not a complete fiction, as alleged early in the thread; it’s a political reflection of the reality that Taiwanese and mainland Chinese people do in many ways form a single nation, in ways that the Irish and the English don’t, and never have. UDS, maybe you missed my post above. To put it into your terms, the ethnic Taiwanese, Hakka and certainly the aboriginal “Mountain People” feel themselves akin to the Irish in your example. And to take your analogy further, you are considering Taiwan to be somewhat akin to Northern Ireland, whereas the ethnic Taiwanese, Hakka and Mountain People think they are Irish not Han Chinese. The ethnic Taiwanese, Hakka and Mountain People have not take any steps to become an internationally distinct State because a) they were colonized by Japan and were second class citizens b) they were colonized by force by the Mainlanders fleeing Mao c) now live with a large belligerent neighbor that threatens to reunite by force if Taiwan takes steps to be an independent country d) the civil war is not technically over e) China has nukes if not an efficient way to land troops f) the US will not go to war to protect Taiwan by treaty nor by common sense If you can understand the Irish UK divide, maybe you can understand that as an outsider you don’t quite get the Taiwan China divide but there might actually be something legitimate there. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/china-controls-taiwan/774654.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/china-controls-taiwan/774654.md?page=5)