# China Controls Taiwan? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 14, 2016, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/china-controls-taiwan/774654 "2016-12-14T02:33:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2016, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/china-controls-taiwan/774654/81 "2016-12-16T05:24:53Z")
> [@UDS](#): > > Whereas the Taiwanese are Han Chinese, consider themselves to be Han Chinese Ethnically, yes, but there is a big distinction within Taiwan’s internal political dialogue about ethnic Chinese vs. politically Chinese. For instance, for over a decade, society and media there has made a big deal about three categories of identification: 1. “Taiwanese” 2. “Taiwanese-Chinese” 3. “Chinese” The identification as “Chinese” has plummeted so drastically that it is now [only a little over 3 percent today. Whereas 59 percent identify as “Taiwanese.”](http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/taiwan/archives/2015/07/26/2003623930) So while most would no doubt call themselves ethnically Chinese, they consider themselves politically distinct, in the same way that many American colonists in the 1770s no doubt would have identified as ethnically/racially English but not politically English. > [@UDS](#): > > mostly haven’t expressed a wish to form a distinct state which is not China In a poll from this year, [52% want independence to be achieved eventually, and even more tellingly, among the younger generation in their twenties, there is strong pro-independence sentiment, with more than 70 percent supporting independence for Taiwan.](http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/front/archives/2016/05/31/2003647521) ---
**Author:** ![coremelt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@coremelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coremelt)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2016, 6:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/china-controls-taiwan/774654/82 "2016-12-16T06:53:11Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > In a poll from this year, [52% want independence to be achieved eventually, and even more tellingly, among the younger generation in their twenties, there is strong pro-independence sentiment, with more than 70 percent supporting independence for Taiwan.](http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/front/archives/2016/05/31/2003647521) Yes but they are very unlikely to get it. Forget military measures. China could cripple Taiwan’s economy with sanctions, by seizing Taiwanese investments in China and by refusing to sell resources to Taiwan. China and Hong Kong make up 40% of Taiwan’s exports. > **[Taiwan's Top Trading Partners 2023](https://www.worldstopexports.com/taiwans-top-import-partners/)** > > Taipei's top trading partners in 2023 plus biggest trade surpluses or deficits by country & major Taiwanese export companies Meanwhile Taiwan is only 2% of China’s Exports: > **[China's Top Trading Partners 2023](https://www.worldstopexports.com/chinas-top-import-partners/)** > > China's top trading partners in 2023, a searchable database showcasing 100 major countries importing Chinese exports plus trade balances by best customers China wouldn’t even notice the sanctions, but they’d devastate the Taiwanese economy. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2016, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/china-controls-taiwan/774654/83 "2016-12-16T13:58:33Z")
> [@md2000](#): > > The problem is very historical and to do with “face”. Over the millennia China would expand its empire to encompass as much as possible, when the government was strong. When the government got weak, or was invaded and failed (as with Genghis Kahn and also in the late 1800’s-early 1900’s) The outer territories would split off from the central government. > > So for China to admit that Taiwan was independent, or Tibet, or give up claims to the islands near Japan or the South China sea - would imply that the current government of China is “weak”. For obvious reasons, they would like to pretend this is not the case. They continue to insist that all historical Chinese territories belong to them, and that in time they will have full control. > > Taiwan, as the embodiment of the former Chinese national government, has maintained a similar fiction. However, there have been rumblings for a while that they should recognize reality and give up any claim to being anything except an island nation of Taiwan. There are fears that any overt attempt to declare complete independence would trigger a military solution from mainland China. So Taiwan exists in this limbo. > > China is like the cranky aunt who says “if SHE comes to the wedding, I won’t”. They make other countries choose to either recognize them, and therefore not Taiwan, or else no deal. Most countries go along with a polite compromise, they will carry on with Taiwan but not in public. > > What Trump has done is throw the connection in China’s face, basically “you told us not to do this, and I did it.” I hope he doesn’t need China to buy Boeing, or buy US treasury bonds, or help vote and enforce sanctions on some country in the UN, etc. In international diplomacy, everything is connected. If we want China to not supply Iran, or North Korea, or whoever, well, they expect certain cooperation in return… not a Trump in a China shop. China also holds a lot of U.S. debt. And is a major trading partner. China could easily force an economic war with the U.S. that would cause a major recession. Now, it would hurt China as well - but China has some advantages when it comes not not having our perspective on how happy your people need to be. And the face thing is very important. As long as the illusion is maintained, everyone is happy. But Trump will likely continue to insult China for the next four years - at some time China may decide that the insults have been significant enough to take action. I’m betting economic. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2016, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/china-controls-taiwan/774654/84 "2016-12-16T15:04:48Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > So while most would no doubt call themselves ethnically Chinese, they consider themselves politically distinct, in the same way that many American colonists in the 1770s no doubt would have identified as ethnically/racially English but not politically English. As I understand it, there was also a major divide even among the ethnic Chinese people. When the Communists took over the mainland in 1949, the Nationalist government evacuated a lot of people to Taiwan. The people who were evacuated were loyalists to Chiang’s regime. Chiang declared martial law which lasted until 1987. But there had been a lot of Chinese people already living in Taiwan before the evacuation. These pre-evacuation Chinese outnumbered the evacuation Chinese by about four to one. But during the martial law era, the evacuation Chinese ran the country. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2016, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/china-controls-taiwan/774654/85 "2016-12-16T15:09:39Z")
> [@coremelt](#): > > Yes but they are very unlikely to get it. Forget military measures. China could cripple Taiwan’s economy with sanctions, by seizing Taiwanese investments in China and by refusing to sell resources to Taiwan. > > China and Hong Kong make up 40% of Taiwan’s exports. > [http://www.worldstopexports.com/taiwans-top-import-partners/](http://www.worldstopexports.com/taiwans-top-import-partners/) > > Meanwhile Taiwan is only 2% of China’s Exports: > [http://www.worldstopexports.com/chinas-top-import-partners/](http://www.worldstopexports.com/chinas-top-import-partners/) > > China wouldn’t even notice the sanctions, but they’d devastate the Taiwanese economy. I was responding to **UDS** ’ post that “[the Taiwanese] mostly haven’t expressed a wish to form a distinct state which is not China.” I cited survey data that, yes, there \*\*is \*\*indeed a significant desire/sentiment for a separate state. Whether that state can be achieved or not is a separate matter. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2016, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/china-controls-taiwan/774654/86 "2016-12-16T20:37:15Z")
> **[China 'seizes US vessel' in S China Sea](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-38347221?SThisFB)** > > The US demands that China returns a US underwater research vessel taken in the South China Sea, say US officials. China has seized a U.S. research ship. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2016, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/china-controls-taiwan/774654/87 "2016-12-16T20:39:33Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > [China 'seizes US vessel' in S China Sea - BBC News](http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-38347221?SThisFB) > > China has seized a U.S. research ship. :rolleyes::rolleyes: China has seized an\* unmanned underwater drone .\* ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2016, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/china-controls-taiwan/774654/88 "2016-12-16T20:56:32Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > :rolleyes::rolleyes: > China has seized an\* unmanned underwater drone .\* Yes. A research vessel. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2016, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/china-controls-taiwan/774654/89 "2016-12-16T20:59:30Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > Yes. A research vessel. Not a “ship” . “China has seized a U.S. research ship.” Just admit your mistake. ---
**Author:** ![Punoqllads](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d2c977/32.png) [@Punoqllads](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Punoqllads)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2016, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/china-controls-taiwan/774654/90 "2016-12-16T21:56:42Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Not a “ship” . “China has seized a U.S. research ship.” > > Just admit your mistake. What’s the distinction between a research vessel and a research ship? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2016, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/china-controls-taiwan/774654/91 "2016-12-16T22:16:14Z")
> [@Punoqllads](#): > > What’s the distinction between a research vessel and a research ship? One is a "unmanned underwater drone\* " and the other is a 4,762 ton, 329 ft ship with a crew of 50. - calling it a “vessel” is a stretch. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2016, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/china-controls-taiwan/774654/92 "2016-12-16T22:48:16Z")
> [@Punoqllads](#): > > What’s the distinction between a research vessel and a research ship? It sounds more dignified than calling it an underwater thingamabobby. ---
**Author:** ![cochrane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cochrane/32/10441_2.png) [@cochrane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cochrane)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2016, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/china-controls-taiwan/774654/93 "2016-12-17T00:21:51Z")
> [@Punoqllads](#): > > What’s the distinction between a research vessel and a research ship? In this case, it’s the difference between a 747 and an Amazon delivery drone. The story is a bit misleading. I’d assume that any ocean vessel would be crewed instead of remotely guided. ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2016, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/china-controls-taiwan/774654/94 "2016-12-17T05:22:20Z")
> [@cochrane](#): > > The story is a bit misleading. I’d assume that any ocean vessel would be crewed instead of remotely guided. I agree. Personally, I’d have referred it it as a “nautical drone” or a “craft” - when I saw the headline I also thought China had detained an actual crewed ship. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2016, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/china-controls-taiwan/774654/95 "2016-12-17T14:17:23Z")
Brings up the interesting question about unmanned vehicles and the law in general. Historically at sea you had crewed vessels, abandoned vessels, wrecked vessels, flotsam, and jetsam. With different laws and customs for each. With in some cases sub-rules for government-owned or military vice civilian-owned. Now we have this new category. Purposeful unmanned devices not abandoned, not wrecked, but busy going about some task. But, like e.g. jetsam, unable to defend themselves against being picked up by any passerby. Aerial drones are sorta similar, but with the big difference it’s a lot harder to capture one without damaging it. In either case, capturing it is definitely interfering with it doing whatever it was up to. And it’s taking possession of somebody else’s property without their permission and almost certainly against their desires. It’ll be interesting to see how this all develops legally and in treaties. ---
**Author:** ![penultima\_thule](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/penultima_thule/32/3833_2.png) [@penultima\_thule](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/penultima_thule)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2016, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/china-controls-taiwan/774654/96 "2016-12-17T22:18:45Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > In either case, capturing it is definitely interfering with it doing whatever it was up to. And it’s taking possession of somebody else’s property without their permission and almost certainly against their desires. Let’s not forget that prior to capture the device could have been taking somebody else’s property or gathering information about that property or causing interference to that property without their permission which, just a certainly, would have been against their desires. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2016, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/china-controls-taiwan/774654/97 "2016-12-17T23:25:10Z")
Agreed. I was being carefully neutral about the whole thing. The seas consist of different regions subject to different degrees of national control. And of course not everyone agrees on where the boundaries are. But those issues aren’t novel at all. Manned subs have been sneaking in to where they’re not welcome for about 75 yeas now. So that’s not novel either. I haven’t bothered to read any articles to learn anything about this specific case or where it happened. I’m interested in the policy-level generalities. Clearly the high seas are a different scenario from well inside Shanghai Bay. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2016, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/china-controls-taiwan/774654/98 "2016-12-18T01:14:11Z")
So, Trump just posted this to Twitter: > [@President Dipshit](#): > > We should tell China that we don’t want the drone they stole back.- let them keep it! [http://imgur.com/a/kWj42<--](http://imgur.com/a/kWj42<--) Imgur link ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2016, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/china-controls-taiwan/774654/99 "2016-12-18T01:28:04Z")
I wonder how much cool used-to-be secret tech is onboard that thing. ---
**Author:** ![Okrahoma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90db22/32.png) [@Okrahoma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Okrahoma)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2016, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/china-controls-taiwan/774654/100 "2016-12-18T03:24:51Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > I wonder how much cool used-to-be secret tech is onboard that thing. I wonder who builds super-secret drones without self-destruct mechanisms? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/china-controls-taiwan/774654.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/china-controls-taiwan/774654.md?page=6)