# China ending one child per family law. Is this good? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 29, 2015, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/china-ending-one-child-per-family-law-is-this-good/736093 "2015-10-29T16:05:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2015, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/china-ending-one-child-per-family-law-is-this-good/736093/41 "2015-10-30T19:36:05Z")
> [@solosam](#): > > I don’t see how abortions make the policy ‘evil.’ The government told you not to get pregnant and you didn’t listen. It’s not like you have anyone else you can blame. > > And today you say the government shouldn’t be allowed to interefere in your freedom, but today’s short-sighted and irresponsible “freedom” won’t do anyone much good when we’re killing each other over lack of water. FORCED abortion, sterilization, prison camps, loss of home/loss of medical and other social benefits…you feel all of these are fair actions of the government because you got pregnant in China?? Seriously? :eek: ---
**Author:** ![solosam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@solosam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/solosam)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2015, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/china-ending-one-child-per-family-law-is-this-good/736093/42 "2015-10-30T19:41:23Z")
> [@XT](#): > > FORCED abortion, sterilization, prison camps, loss of home/loss of medical and other social benefits…you feel all of these are fair actions of the government because you got pregnant in China?? Seriously? :eek: I will repeat: > [@](#): > > I don’t see how abortions make the policy ‘evil.’ I said “abortions.” I do not see any reference to prison camps or any of the other things you mentioned. Why do you feel the need to add words that I did not say? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2015, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/china-ending-one-child-per-family-law-is-this-good/736093/43 "2015-10-30T19:47:20Z")
> [@solosam](#): > > I will repeat: > > I said “abortions.” I do not see any reference to prison camps or any of the other things you mentioned. Why do you feel the need to add words that I did not say? We are talking about the entire policy and how it was actually implemented in China, not selective parts of it. All of those things and more were part of the policy and how it was enforced in China, which you state isn’t ‘evil’. But, ok…so, you don’t feel the forced abortions are ‘evil’, or don’t feel that abortion, in general is evil (which has nothing to do with this thread, which is about the China one child policy). ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2015, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/china-ending-one-child-per-family-law-is-this-good/736093/44 "2015-10-30T19:49:40Z")
> [@solosam](#): > > I don’t see how abortions make the policy ‘evil.’ The government told you not to get pregnant and you didn’t listen. It’s not like you have anyone else you can blame. I don’t see why torture is evil. The government told you not to criticize the president and you didn’t listen… It’s not like you have anyone else to blame. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2015, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/china-ending-one-child-per-family-law-is-this-good/736093/45 "2015-10-30T19:56:54Z")
> [@Omar\_Little](#): > > Apparently we were somebody’s children and that didn’t work out too well. > > This decision by China will exacerbate the climate change issue. The world needs less people not more. Not really, the reason why China is changing policy is because they do notice what the increase of the quality of life is doing, families are having less kids. And as many have noted dropping the one child rule will do very little to counter the trend of people having less kids in developed and almost developed nations. > **[Global population growth, box by box](https://www.ted.com/talks/hans_rosling_global_population_growth_box_by_box)** > > The world's population will grow to 9 billion over the next 50 years -- and only by raising the living standards of the poorest can we check population growth. This is the paradoxical answer that Hans Rosling unveils at TED@Cannes using colorful new... Do not forget also that technological progress is not only a cause of problems, but that it can also solve them by us becoming aware of what needs to be changed to prevent disaster. [And as Buckminster Fuller can tell you, we can (and will) do a lot with less materials to make the lives of most people to be fulfilling](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X8lqnO7aYe0), it is only the dictators out there and leaders that do not allow progress the ones that do cause pain and suffering. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2015, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/china-ending-one-child-per-family-law-is-this-good/736093/46 "2015-10-30T20:28:36Z")
Saw on the intertubes, took a picture of Sheriff Brody in _Jaws_, well known scene, but caption is “We’re gonna need a bigger planet!”. ---
**Author:** ![China\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2015, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/china-ending-one-child-per-family-law-is-this-good/736093/47 "2015-10-31T04:21:16Z")
> [@Horatio\_Hellpop](#): > > A few generations in, the one-child policy has been shown not to solve the problems it was designed to address. China had a complicated metric for who got an exception to the rule, to the point that most urban families that wanted two kids could have them. There is even a chain of stores that caters to the needs of parents of twins. Gotta cite? I had twins in China 10 years ago, and left China about 5 years ago. At least in my experience, twins were rare and there were no chain stores catering to twins. ---
**Author:** ![China\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2015, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/china-ending-one-child-per-family-law-is-this-good/736093/48 "2015-10-31T04:36:08Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > With respect, by the time the policy was enacted, birth rates were already falling. Thailand has followed the same pattern. There was an overpopulation bulge, which are common in the gap between childhood mortality falling and birth rates dropping. But it was a problem that was likely to self correct, as it has in many contexts. And if policy was really needed, birth spacing policy or encouraging late childbirth would have the same effect with less intrusiveness. Encouraging massive families was a bad move, but the one child policy was not the answer. > > The 35 (actually 37%) figure is from 2007 in the China Daily (admittedly not the best source.) I’ve seen other estimates of 40-63%. > > Enforcement was inconsistent. In a large city, I don’t doubt it was by the books. But provinces had their own regulations and enforcement by local board, some more lax than others. In Zhejiang, couples can have two kids if the wife has one sister and her husband lives with her family to help take care of her parents. In Fujian, permission to have a second kid is calculated by population density. And fines and punishments vary wildly across provinces. > > On a local level there are many times when officials turned a blind eye on some (I recall an audit where thousands of officials were found to have unauthorized kids), while using the policy as a mechanism for harassing others-- all while raising massive amounts of funds. > > My horse in this race is that many people have the idea that it was a brutal but ultimately sensible policy that did some good. It wasn’t. It was a brutal and needless policy that didn’t really change much at the price of incredible misery. It’s important to be clear on time lines. In the 70’s, 80’s and 90’s, the one child policy was draconianly enforced across the country. No doubt there were local exceptions but by and large enforced heavy handedly until this century. You’re pointing out the relaxation that happened in the past 10 years or so. Your data is also from the past decade. That doesn’t negate the previous 25 years. IMHO it limited population growth by some several hundred million. And was incredibly invasive and part of the State control. At the same time, the one child policy kicked the can down the road by directly contributing to the aging population issue. ---
**Author:** ![MrQwertyasd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@MrQwertyasd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrQwertyasd)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2015, 12:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/china-ending-one-child-per-family-law-is-this-good/736093/49 "2015-10-31T12:04:13Z")
> [@teflon\_grut](#): > > China is loosening the restrictions on their population control measure. Couples will now be allowed to have two children. How does everyone on the board feel about this? Is it inhumane to restrict procreation or is it forward thinking? I tend to feel it is a bit of both, as they are not mutually exclusive. [I think it’s enough to check the UN projections](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VEy5vIWCJLQ) ---
**Author:** ![PhillyGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ed655f/32.png) [@PhillyGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PhillyGuy)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2015, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/china-ending-one-child-per-family-law-is-this-good/736093/50 "2015-11-01T00:42:17Z")
> [@solosam](#): > > I do not see any reference to prison camps or any of the other things you mentioned. Why do you feel the need to add words that I did not say? A policy that limits the number of children, whether to one or two or three, cannot be sustained in a democracy. If you want to put into place a legal family size limit, you have to accept the authoritarianism that goes with it. ---
**Author:** ![Horatio\_Hellpop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Horatio\_Hellpop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatio_Hellpop)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2015, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/china-ending-one-child-per-family-law-is-this-good/736093/51 "2015-11-01T15:39:19Z")
> [@China\_Guy](#): > > Gotta cite? I had twins in China 10 years ago, and left China about 5 years ago. At least in my experience, twins were rare and there were no chain stores catering to twins. I lived in China for a year and a half and left three months ago. I taught elementary school children, and twins were far from rare. Students and other teachers told me twins were the biggest exception to the policy. I’ve seen the “twins” stores with my own eyes, but don’t recall the name of the chain. I’ll ask around. I don’t have an online cite, but nonetheless assert that this factual claim is true. ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2015, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/china-ending-one-child-per-family-law-is-this-good/736093/52 "2015-11-01T16:14:56Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > Their stated reason for the change is that the population is aging. They know they’ll need a strong workforce 20 to 30 years from now to maintain their economy and all those old people. Remember that they’ve been on 1 child per couple restriction, that decreases population long term. . For work? Or, for War? China has been making ugly territorial claims. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2015, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/china-ending-one-child-per-family-law-is-this-good/736093/53 "2015-11-01T17:04:56Z")
They don’t need fighters, they need workers’ salaries to tax to be able to pay old folks’ pensions with. Wars don’t earn, they cost. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2015, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/china-ending-one-child-per-family-law-is-this-good/736093/54 "2015-11-01T17:46:16Z")
With all the exceptions (and people who found a way to flat-out cheat), the new policy probably institutionalizes what’s already the case, or nearly so. ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2015, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/china-ending-one-child-per-family-law-is-this-good/736093/55 "2015-11-01T22:30:12Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > They don’t need fighters, they need workers’ salaries to tax to be able to pay old folks’ pensions with. Wars don’t earn, they cost. That view is nonsense. If true, there would have been no Worlds Wars, nor Napoleonic Wars…nor most wars. If you are right, why is China claiming that Vietnam & the Philippines are territories of China (they have made such claims, BTW)? ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2015, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/china-ending-one-child-per-family-law-is-this-good/736093/56 "2015-11-01T22:38:32Z")
> [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](#): > > why is China claiming that Vietnam & the Philippines are territories of China (they have made such claims, BTW)? I’m going to have to ask for a cite for that; I’ve never heard any such claim, unless you mean something like a more informal “sphere of influence” thing. ---
**Author:** ![steellord321](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e95f7d/32.png) [@steellord321](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steellord321)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2015, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/china-ending-one-child-per-family-law-is-this-good/736093/57 "2015-11-02T01:01:30Z")
oh here we go again, heterosexuals whining that it’s “inhumane” to restrict procreation, even while gay couples cannot adopt or even surrogacy and so basically cannot have kids period in china. Their ‘best’ option is to spend about $150,000 coming to the US and hiring a surrogate to have the baby here, then practically smuggle it back into china > **[Gay Couples in China Look Abroad to Start a Family](https://www.wsj.com/articles/BL-CJB-27825)** > > Xu Zhe decided a few years ago that he wanted to get married and have a baby, but Mr. Xu is gay and his goals aren’t attainable in China. Now that is something to get upset about or it’s “inhumane” to restrict population while china pollutes on a catastrophic level? Is that what you meant? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2015, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/china-ending-one-child-per-family-law-is-this-good/736093/58 "2015-11-02T01:10:34Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > I’m going to have to ask for a cite for that; I’ve never heard any such claim, unless you mean something like a more informal “sphere of influence” thing. Whoa…seriously? You are unaware of what China has been doing in the South China Sea?? Well, [here](http://www.theskimm.com/skimm-guides/south-and-east-china-sea-conflicts) you go: > [@](#): > > THE STORY > > China’s been getting into some serious water fights with its neighbors. Welcome to the South and East China Sea disputes. > WHAT ARE THE SOUTH AND EAST CHINA SEAS? > > Seas that are – yup – south and east of China. They’re both part of the Pacific Ocean. And they both contain islands that have started big-time feuds between Asian countries. > WHO OWNS WHAT? > > Depends who you ask. Countries including China, the Philippines, Taiwan, and Vietnam claim parts of the “Paracel” and “Spratly” islands in the South China Sea. In the East China Sea, China and Japan both claim a group of islands. Japan calls them the “Senkaku” islands and China calls them the “Diaoyu” islands. Translation: Asia, we have a problem. > WHY DOES EVERYONE WANT A PIECE? > > Because both seas have serious trade and oil swag. Think: important shipping routes and potentially big oil and gas reserves. So whoever says ‘mine’ gets to control a major trade route and tap that oil. > HOW LONG HAS EVERYONE BEEN FIGHTING? > > The fight between China and Japan over the East China Sea’s been going on for more than 100 years, while the South China Sea has become a BF international D in recent years. > WHAT’S THE LATEST? > > China’s been playing SimCity in the South China Sea. Over the past year and a half, it’s built 2,000 acres of artificial islands complete with helipads, airstrips, and military facilities. China’s not the first to dabble in South China Sea real estate – Vietnam, Taiwan, and the Philippines have all built on islands in the past. But China’s latest moves make that all look like Legos. This kind of flexing shows that China is really set on marking its territory. > I DON’T LIVE IN ASIA. WHY DO I CARE? > > Because it could not only start a conflict between China and the neighbors, but also between China and the US. The US has a major stake in the trade that goes down in the region. And it really doesn’t want China calling the shots, controlling trade routes, and startin’ somethin’ with the US’s Asian allies. Cue US Sec of State Kerry telling China to pump the brakes. And the US monitoring China’s island-building via surveillance planes. To which China has said ‘not America’s business.’ America would agree to disagree. There are a ton of cites on this if you want to Google ‘South China Sea dispute’, and follow up on it. We’ve actually discussed this directly in several threads on the board as well. I didn’t know that anyone was unaware of this since it’s been in the news so much late. ---
**Author:** ![PhillyGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ed655f/32.png) [@PhillyGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PhillyGuy)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2015, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/china-ending-one-child-per-family-law-is-this-good/736093/59 "2015-11-02T01:30:16Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Whoa…seriously? You are unaware of what China has been doing in the South China Sea?? The statement made was that China claims Vietnam and the Philippines. [China’s territorial claims](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_territorial_disputes#Asia_and_the_Pacific) are more modest than that. [Sino-Vietnamese War](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-Vietnamese_War) > [@](#): > > When On January 1, 1979, Chinese Vice-premier Deng Xiaoping visited the United States for the first time and told American president Jimmy Carter: “The little child is getting naughty, it’s time he be spanked.” Spanked isn’t good, but it isn’t the same as national obliteration. And since 1979, China hasn’t gone to war with anyone. This remains the biggest concern: > **[Taiwan and China: A Ticking Clock](https://nationalinterest.org/commentary/taiwan-china-ticking-clock-9983)** > > The first-ever ministerial meeting shouldn't obscure an enduring danger.  > [@](#): > > . . . if Taiwan’s government and people simply continue living freely and democratically as they are, Beijing accords to itself the right to attack the island at a time of its choosing. When it comes to reproductive freedom, the PRC government remains despicable. But they haven’t been particularly warlike compared to, well, the US. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2015, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/china-ending-one-child-per-family-law-is-this-good/736093/60 "2015-11-02T01:32:40Z")
> [@steellord321](#): > > oh here we go again, heterosexuals whining that it’s “inhumane” to restrict procreation, even while gay couples cannot adopt or even surrogacy and so basically cannot have kids period in china. Their ‘best’ option is to spend about $150,000 coming to the US and hiring a surrogate to have the baby here, then practically smuggle it back into china > > [http://blogs.wsj.com/chinarealtime/2015/10/02/gay-couples-in-china-look-abroad-to-start-a-family/](http://blogs.wsj.com/chinarealtime/2015/10/02/gay-couples-in-china-look-abroad-to-start-a-family/) > > Now that is something to get upset about > > or it’s “inhumane” to restrict population while china pollutes on a catastrophic level? Is that what you meant? Oh, here we go again complaining about gay people not being able to adopt when gays are killed in some countries. Now, that’s something to get upset about!! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/china-ending-one-child-per-family-law-is-this-good/736093.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/china-ending-one-child-per-family-law-is-this-good/736093.md?page=4)