# China wants us to give them electric car technology before a trade pact **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 23, 2010, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/china-wants-us-to-give-them-electric-car-technology-before-a-trade-pact/554795 "2010-09-23T18:07:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2010, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/china-wants-us-to-give-them-electric-car-technology-before-a-trade-pact/554795/1 "2010-09-23T18:07:01Z")
[http://detroitfreepress.mi.newsmemory.com/?token=0bdc1093e1281b3e7fccee8535a5649a&cnum=1226234&fod=1111111ARC](http://detroitfreepress.mi.newsmemory.com/?token=0bdc1093e1281b3e7fccee8535a5649a&cnum=1226234&fod=1111111ARC) China wants to be a leader in electric cars within 10 years. So they demand we give them our electric car technology before we can develop a new trade pact. Seems reasonable to me. Many companies will make immediate profits if their niche gets breaks. Screw the auto builders. Screw the tech people who have spent years developing electric tech. Lets just give it away . Makes perfect sense to me. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2010, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/china-wants-us-to-give-them-electric-car-technology-before-a-trade-pact/554795/2 "2010-09-23T18:15:45Z")
Your link doesn’t go to the article. Forgive me if I don’t trust your summary of it. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2010, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/china-wants-us-to-give-them-electric-car-technology-before-a-trade-pact/554795/3 "2010-09-23T18:39:35Z")
Here is a more sober [analysis](http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703860104575507923005821484.html). Basically, right now China requires foreign car companies to work with a Chinese partner company as a condition of doing business in China. In order to build it’s electric car industry, China is considering requiring foreign companies to divulge specific electric car technology to their partner companies. The obvious fear is that these partner companies will then ditch the American car companies they were working with and produce competing products. Seems like a dick move on China’s part, but if they were to go through with it there is not much we could do. I think this is a good example of why it is important to remember that state-owned industries are still a major part of China’s economy, and the government has no problem at all mucking about in business. While China has become much freer and the marketplace has opened up considerably, it is nowhere near the laissez faire wonderland it’s popular characterized as. The government is still in charge. ---
**Author:** ![Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a183cd/32.png) [@Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barkis_is_Willin)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2010, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/china-wants-us-to-give-them-electric-car-technology-before-a-trade-pact/554795/4 "2010-09-23T18:42:31Z")
Here is an article regarding the OP’s claim. > **[China's Green Car Plan Would Force Automakers to Surrender Intellectual Property](https://www.autoguide.com/auto-news/2010/09/chinas-green-car-plan-would-force-automakers-to-surrender-intellectual-property.html)** > > A controversial Chinese government plan that would force foreign automakers to surrender their electric vehicle technology in exchange for being able to sell vehicles in the world’s largest auto-market is drawing the ire of automakers... Economics is not my strong suit, but isn’t foreign trade based on the idea that some countries have competitive and comarative advantages over others? Why would comeone give up their advantage (techology) in order to continue trade? ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2010, 5:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/china-wants-us-to-give-them-electric-car-technology-before-a-trade-pact/554795/5 "2010-09-26T05:17:14Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Your link doesn’t go to the article. Forgive me if I don’t trust your summary of it. Dingell was the root of the article. I was at a Dem. club meeting today and talked with him and his assistant and we discussed it and the fact that it got no press coverage or TV time. It is another huge issue since when we offshored our production it was lock ,stock and intellectual property. We had generations of American Engineering and expertise simply transferred to foreign businesses. China and India did not develop a better mousetrap. We gave them ours to start from. They did not have to fight through the hit and miss that is part of technical development. They did not incur the cost. We gave it to them so the corporations could lower their labor costs. What a good deal for us. Now they want the electric car technology. Why would we give it to them? Because lots of other businesses may get access to the Chinese market. Our politicians made the decision in the past to give production away to get a toe in, but the Chinese did not provide an equal playing field. From currency manipulation to tariffs, they slanted the game their way. [http://www.evworld.com/news.cfm?newsid=24027](http://www.evworld.com/news.cfm?newsid=24027) ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2010, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/china-wants-us-to-give-them-electric-car-technology-before-a-trade-pact/554795/6 "2010-09-26T05:24:45Z")
[Here. I’ll give the Chinese what they want](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:EdisonElectricCar1913.jpg). ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2010, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/china-wants-us-to-give-them-electric-car-technology-before-a-trade-pact/554795/7 "2010-09-26T16:02:37Z")
This brings a major problem to the front. Is it OK for businesses to act in a way that harms the country, if they make immediate profits from it. We have ,for some stupid reason. allowed that corporations can act without a conscience. Their mandate is to make money. Therefore selling out many other businesses in order to make money for yours is a good idea. Selling out the nation , if it is a money maker is understandable and legit for corps? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2010, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/china-wants-us-to-give-them-electric-car-technology-before-a-trade-pact/554795/8 "2010-09-26T16:53:16Z")
What evidence is there that US car manufacturers are eagerly lining up to be fleeced? I see a brief article that says that China is demanding this (not the one from the OP, unsurprising enough), but no where do I see any indications that it’s something US companies are wanting to do. To me, this sounds like IBM and Japan all over again, except this time it’s China forcing things. Basically, if US manufacturers didn’t learn over that business, then they deserve exactly what’s going to happen to them if they try to play the same game in China. -XT ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2010, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/china-wants-us-to-give-them-electric-car-technology-before-a-trade-pact/554795/9 "2010-09-26T17:08:50Z")
Who said the auto companies are lined up to be fleeced? Who? But there will be pressure from other businesses who will be eager to get in. They may have a lot of pressure from the government too. But nobody said the auto companies are eager to be sacrificial lambs in the altar of international business. ---
**Author:** ![Le\_Jacquelope](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e0b2c6/32.png) [@Le\_Jacquelope](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Le_Jacquelope)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2010, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/china-wants-us-to-give-them-electric-car-technology-before-a-trade-pact/554795/10 "2010-09-26T17:30:59Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > Here is a more sober [analysis](http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703860104575507923005821484.html). > > Basically, right now China requires foreign car companies to work with a Chinese partner company as a condition of doing business in China. In order to build it’s electric car industry, China is considering requiring foreign companies to divulge specific electric car technology to their partner companies. The obvious fear is that these partner companies will then ditch the American car companies they were working with and produce competing products. > > Seems like a dick move on China’s part, but if they were to go through with it there is not much we could do. > > I think this is a good example of why it is important to remember that state-owned industries are still a major part of China’s economy, and the government has no problem at all mucking about in business. While China has become much freer and the marketplace has opened up considerably, it is nowhere near the laissez faire wonderland it’s popular characterized as. The government is still in charge. What I don’t get is how can we have free trade with a Government that does this? How can there even be such a thing as free trade with them? ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2010, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/china-wants-us-to-give-them-electric-car-technology-before-a-trade-pact/554795/11 "2010-09-26T17:43:03Z")
In any case, this hasn’t actually happened and I doubt it will happen. China is feeling very cocky right now, because they feel like they successfully avoided the global financial crisis. They’ve been desperate to show they are part of the grown-up club for years, and I think moves like this are just about trying to show they are a force to be reckoned with, and that they can “say no to America” when they feel like it. China is also currently peddling it’s development strategy, which is along the lines of “in messy democracies, people dither and dather and can’t actually get stuff done. In China, our strong government just decides they are going to install bullet trains, or become leaders in green energy, or whatever, and it happens…quickly.” Saying they are going to make moves like this pisses off America slightly (but, since they probably aren’t actually going to do it, it doesn’t piss off the business interests that really matter) but gains them a lot of global respect in return. If they do manage to become the leaders in green energy- or create the perception that they are- a lot of developing countries are going to be looking towards them rather than us. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2010, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/china-wants-us-to-give-them-electric-car-technology-before-a-trade-pact/554795/12 "2010-09-26T17:58:18Z")
> [@Le\_Jacquelope](#): > > What I don’t get is how can we have free trade with a Government that does this? > > How can there even be such a thing as free trade with them? You might have missed the part where they haven’t actually done it. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2010, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/china-wants-us-to-give-them-electric-car-technology-before-a-trade-pact/554795/13 "2010-09-26T18:16:08Z")
Recognize however that this is a take on the draft of possible future plans is as filtered through auto industry executives. China is straight forward. They understand the power they have as the fasting growing market and want to leverage it. Free market? They don’t know from free market. They are just learning. They want only Chinese companies to be able to benefit from their low labor costs, the supply chain that they are building up with government money, and the resources that exist within their borders such as rare earth metals; their form of protectionism is to say that you can invest here but as a minority stake holder only. I don’t know how much this is trying to harvest the technology and how much it is the same sort of protectionism that many Americans desire for themselves - just as unreasonably and shortsightedly. I also suspect it will be negotiated out. ---
**Author:** ![Susanann](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7ab992/32.png) [@Susanann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Susanann)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2010, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/china-wants-us-to-give-them-electric-car-technology-before-a-trade-pact/554795/14 "2010-09-26T18:21:48Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > China wants us to give them electric car technology before a trade pact. IF we dont give it to them, wont they just steal it anyways? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2010, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/china-wants-us-to-give-them-electric-car-technology-before-a-trade-pact/554795/15 "2010-09-26T18:39:18Z")
[QUOTE=Susanann] IF we dont give it to them, wont they just steal it anyways? [/QUOTE] Hopefully this was a joke. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Mozart1220](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f1d935/32.png) [@Mozart1220](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mozart1220)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2010, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/china-wants-us-to-give-them-electric-car-technology-before-a-trade-pact/554795/16 "2010-09-26T18:54:10Z")
Hey, I say give it to them. They aren’t run by oil companies and would probably seriously develop it into something viable in our lifetimes. Then we can buy it back from them. At least there will be alternatives to the 100 year old tech we use now. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2010, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/china-wants-us-to-give-them-electric-car-technology-before-a-trade-pact/554795/17 "2010-09-26T19:19:07Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > [QUOTE=Susanann] > IF we dont give it to them, wont they just steal it anyways? Hopefully this was a joke. -XT [/QUOTE] I doubt it. China is infamous for allowing reverse engineering of foreign technology and of not enforcing intellectual property rights. But the bigger picture is not likely the technology that already exists, although they will try to lay claim to it however they can, but becoming the place that the next generation of innovation happens. [This article](http://www.slate.com/id/2250599/) gives some broader context of how China is trying corral development of new emerging technology into their pen. > [@](#): > > The last few years have seen perhaps the largest energy technology transfer in human history. In 2004, China paid about $5 billion for four state-of-the art nuclear reactors from Pennsylvania-based Westinghouse Corp. In exchange, Westinghouse agreed to transfer the technology and know-how to Chinese state-owned firms. French state-owned company Areva lost out, because it refused to turn over its intellectual property. … > > …Energy firms are willing to part with their intellectual property, because they want a stake, even a minority one, in the rapid growth of the energy sector in China and around the globe. “China will be the world’s nuclear industry leader,” the chief technology officer of Atomic Energy Canada flatly told Bloomberg. … > > … China, Korea and Japan are out-competing the United States in the development of solar, wind, electric cars, and high-speed trains. China’s share of global clean-tech investment has risen each year, finally surpassing the United States for the first time in 2008. These Asian nations and China in particular aim to dominate global export markets, so that future tech transfer will come from China to us. … > > …Now China’s green leap forward reaffirms the fact that that states enable and fund private firms to innovate. Instead of crowding out private investments, China is crowding them inside its borders. Last year, China attracted $34.6 billion in private clean tech capital, twice as much as flowed into the United States. > None of this should surprise us. China is simply doing what every other nation in human history has done, which is to guarantee its citizens and businesses access to reliable sources of energy, the metabolism for the entire economy. The U.S. government built hydro-electric dams during the early decades of the 20th century, opening up the West for major new cities and energy-intensive industries like aluminum manufacturing in Washington state. Nuclear plants were next, and, though over-hyped at the time, they still provide 20 percent of America’s electricity. Solar panels and large wind turbines were invented here and further advanced by the U.S. space program; recent improvements have come from Japanese, German, Spanish, and now Chinese governments… ---
**Author:** ![tingbudong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tingbudong/32/520_2.png) [@tingbudong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tingbudong)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2010, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/china-wants-us-to-give-them-electric-car-technology-before-a-trade-pact/554795/18 "2010-09-26T19:25:57Z")
> [@](#): > > China is feeling very cocky right now, because they feel like they successfully avoided the global financial crisis. They’ve been desperate to show they are part of the grown-up club for years, and I think moves like this are just about trying to show they are a force to be reckoned with, and that they can “say no to America” when they feel like it. > > China is also currently peddling it’s development strategy, which is along the lines of "in messy democracies, people dither and dather and can’t actually get stuff done. In China, our strong government just decides they are going to install bullet trains, or become leaders in green energy, or whatever Well said. There is a definite feeling of superiority right now in the more nationalistic Chinese circles (see - Global Times) regarding the apparent triumph of their authoritarian-style capitalism over Western models. Personally, I feel that they have jumped the gun on that attitude (or claim of victory), as evidenced by increased general feelings of uneasiness from their neighbors, and (some could argue) re-alignment with the USA of said nations (Vietnam, in particular) in response to increased bullying over trivial matters. The recent incident with Japan merely adds fuel to this increasing uncertainty which might result in a strengthening of Japan-US relations as Japan cozies up to their long time ally, despite recent tiffs over Okinawa. ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2010, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/china-wants-us-to-give-them-electric-car-technology-before-a-trade-pact/554795/19 "2010-09-26T20:48:11Z")
First. the Chinese will steal what they canot obtain legally. Second, it is in our interest for China to develop electric cars-that way there will be less pollution, and less pressure on petroleum prices. Third, China now has tremendous leverage over us (because we buy their products). They can threaten us very effectively. Think its bad now? Wait till we start importing Chinese-made vaccines! ---
**Author:** ![Le\_Jacquelope](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e0b2c6/32.png) [@Le\_Jacquelope](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Le_Jacquelope)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2010, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/china-wants-us-to-give-them-electric-car-technology-before-a-trade-pact/554795/20 "2010-09-26T21:55:20Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > > [@Le\_Jacquelope](#): > > > > What I don’t get is how can we have free trade with a Government that does this? > > > > How can there even be such a thing as free trade with them? > > You might have missed the part where they haven’t actually done it. Uhm, they actually have done it with other companies. A lot. China used to just steal intellectual property on the sly (See: Cisco vs Huawei and the Chevrolet Spark vs the Cherry QQ), now they make it a part of their offshore outsourcing contractual agreements. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/china-wants-us-to-give-them-electric-car-technology-before-a-trade-pact/554795.md?page=2)