# China? Why Not "Minga"? (Or "Cathay") **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [August 19, 2013, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/china-why-not-minga-or-cathay/666672 "2013-08-19T22:40:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 7\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2013, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/china-why-not-minga-or-cathay/666672/1 "2013-08-19T22:40:25Z")
Modern China gets its name from the Chi’n Dynasty-which is millennia old. The Ming Dynasty was far more important-so why isn’t the country named for it? Incidentally, the old Portuguese name for China (Cathay) is much nicer-why did it fall into disuse? ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2013, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/china-why-not-minga-or-cathay/666672/2 "2013-08-20T01:22:36Z")
Because the etymology of “China” shows it comes from a Sanskrit word for the country, which developed long after the Chi’n (Qin, now) Dynasty was gone. It entered European languages with Marco Polo (as Chin). Presumably, that was how he thought he heard it pronounced, and a modern transliteration indicates the “chin” sound is part of the name. “China” entered English in 1555. By the time the Ming Dynasty came around, the country was already called “China.” The OED says the actual origin is subject to much debate. The Ch’in Dynasty is only one possible origin. “Cathay” is a latinized form of “China.” It’s hard to be sure why it was supplanted, but perhaps they were trying to use something closer to what the Chinese called their country. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2013, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/china-why-not-minga-or-cathay/666672/3 "2013-08-20T01:25:13Z")
The Chin Dynasty (more commonly translated as Qin nowadays) was not just the name of the family. It was also the name of the region where they were from. So the Qin Empire became the common name for all the territory they conquered just as the Roman Empire became the name for all the territory Rome conquered. ---
**Author:** ![mbh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a6a055/32.png) [@mbh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mbh)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2013, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/china-why-not-minga-or-cathay/666672/4 "2013-08-20T17:34:06Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > Incidentally, the old Portuguese name for China (Cathay) is much nicer-why did it fall into disuse? > **[Cathay](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cathay)** > > Cathay (/kæˈθeɪ/ ka-THAY) is a historical name for China that was used in Europe. During the early modern period, the term Cathay initially evolved as a term referring to what is now Northern China, completely separate and distinct from China, which was a reference to southern China. As knowledge of East Asia increased, Cathay came to be seen as the same polity as China as a whole. The term Cathay became a poetic name for China. > The name Cathay originates from the term Khitan (Chinese: 契丹; pin... > [@](#): > > Cathay is the Anglicized version of “Catai” and an alternative name for China in English. It originates from the word Khitan[1] (Chinese: 契丹, Qìdān), the name of a nomadic people who founded the Liao Dynasty which ruled much of Northern China from 907 to 1125, > [@](#): > > As European and Arab travelers started reaching the Mongol Empire, they described the Mongol-controlled Northern China as Cathay (in a number of spelling variants) as well. The name occurs in the writings of Giovanni da Pian del Carpine (ca. 1180 - 1252) (as Kitaia), William of Rubruck (ca. 1220 - ca. 1293) (as Cataya or Cathaia).[3] Rashid-al-Din Hamadani, ibn Battuta, Marco Polo all were referring to Northern China as Cathay, while Southern China, ruled by the Song dynasty, was Mangi, Manzi, Chin, or Sin.[3] The word Manzi or Mangi means the recalcitrant ones, i.e., those who did not submit to the rule of the Yuan dynasty. The name for South China used most commonly on medieval maps was Manzi. > [@](#): > > While Central Asia had long known China under names similar to Cathay, that country was known to the peoples of South-East Asia and India under names similar to China (cf. e.g. Cina in modern Malay). When Marco Polo wrote, the Mongols only controlled the north. The south was a separate country. Unknown to the Europeans, the Mongols conquered the south, and unified the country. Europeans started trading with port cities in the south, and called it China. They still believed that Cathay was a different country, inland and farther north. Eventually, Europeans figured out that Cathay and China were one and the same. And since most of their contact was through the southern ports, the name “China” became more common. ---
**Author:** ![LawMonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/d6d6ee/32.png) [@LawMonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LawMonkey)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2013, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/china-why-not-minga-or-cathay/666672/5 "2013-08-20T18:14:45Z")
Tangentially related, did Americans/Europeans ever really call Chinese “Celestials,” a la _ **Deadwood** _? ---
**Author:** ![mbh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a6a055/32.png) [@mbh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mbh)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2013, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/china-why-not-minga-or-cathay/666672/6 "2013-08-20T18:30:22Z")
Imperial China was a theocracy. A lot of references to government contained phrases that probably should have been translated as “divine”, and could have been translated as “august”, but in the 19th Century were often translated as “celestial”. So I can see how a westerner might apply the term to Chinese in general. I don’t think it was a common practice. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2013, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/china-why-not-minga-or-cathay/666672/7 "2013-08-20T18:34:11Z")
> [@LawMonkey](#): > > Tangentially related, did Americans/Europeans ever really call Chinese “Celestials,” a la _ **Deadwood** _? [Yep](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celestial_%28Chinese%29).