# China's got a carrier! **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 9, 2011, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chinas-got-a-carrier/584856 "2011-06-09T15:26:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Sablicious](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bbce88/32.png) [@Sablicious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sablicious)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2011, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chinas-got-a-carrier/584856/1 "2011-06-09T15:26:27Z")
…And a 4701.00 Tflops supercomputer to hack government Gmail accounts with! Should the US be wetting its panties yet or does that come when China develop stealth fighters / bombers? (…presuming they haven’t already). [Not-so-breaking news](http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/world/beijing-develops-aircraft-carrier/story-e6frg6so-1226072608072) [Reassurances / rhetoric](http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/8790978.cms) ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2011, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chinas-got-a-carrier/584856/2 "2011-06-09T15:29:38Z")
They finally got an aircraft carrier? What took them so long? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2011, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chinas-got-a-carrier/584856/3 "2011-06-09T15:34:47Z")
> [@Sablicious](#): > > **China’s got a carrier!** N.B.: Just one carrier! All rest of girls have been vaccinized! ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2011, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chinas-got-a-carrier/584856/4 "2011-06-09T15:37:20Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > They finally got an aircraft carrier? What took them so long? Carriers are for power projection into areas you don’t otherwise have bases near. China hasn’t felt the need to do that, for the most part, I assume. The only places China has threatened (Korea, Japan, Taiwan) are nearby. If China decides to move into the superpower role as modeled by the US/UK, then they may feel that they need to get involved in “small” wars further away (like Africa) than has been the case up to this point. Also, developing carrier ops from scratch takes a little time. Nowadays, you can google up how the US/UK/French do it, but there is still a ton of little details that go unsaid. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2011, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chinas-got-a-carrier/584856/5 "2011-06-09T15:47:56Z")
A “refurbished Russian vessel”? 😛 I’m not seeing the bed wetting possibilities here. When China builds 10 of it’s own designed supercarriers then we might need to be in full bed wetting mode. It will be interesting to see when/if they complete it and how they use it. If they do extensive blue water operations with it and deploy it far from China that will be impressive, to be sure. if they are able to fly really high tech modern fighters off of it that will be impressive as well. It will be more than the Russians ever did with their carriers…presumably one of which is acting as at least the base for this Chinese carrier. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2011, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chinas-got-a-carrier/584856/6 "2011-06-09T15:49:08Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > They finally got an aircraft carrier? What took them so long? They’re trying to catch up with Brazil. > **[List of aircraft carriers in service](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_aircraft_carriers_in_service)** > > This is a list of aircraft carriers which are currently in service, under maintenance or refit, in reserve, under construction, or being updated. An aircraft carrier is a warship with a full-length flight deck, hangar and facilities for arming, deploying, and recovering aircraft. The list only refers to the status of the ship, not availability or condition of an air wing. This includes helicopter carriers and also amphibious assault ships, if the vessel's primary purpose is to carry, arm, depl ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2011, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chinas-got-a-carrier/584856/7 "2011-06-09T15:52:05Z")
It’s interesting but not surprising. China has wanted to have an ocean going fleet for a while now and a carrier is pretty much the prestige piece they’d want to have. What it does though is make it more interesting for the US. China obviously see the US ring of naval base/allies as either threatening or constraining. Taiwan, Singapore, Philippines, South Korea and Japan basically act as gateways any Chinese fleet would have to move through if they were push outwards. So does this fleet expansion lead to the US stepping slightly back to farther base stations like Guam and Australia and relieve some of the distress the Chinese might feel or do they ignore it? Regardless, China is going to have to learn how to provision, manage and operate a deep water fleet and that takes a while. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2011, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chinas-got-a-carrier/584856/8 "2011-06-09T15:53:45Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > A “refurbished Russian vessel”? 😛 I’m not seeing the bed wetting possibilities here. The old, never-completed [Varyag](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_aircraft_carrier_Varyag). Substantial vessel, but still rather smaller than American super-carriers. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2011, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chinas-got-a-carrier/584856/9 "2011-06-09T15:54:54Z")
[The Carrier Balance of Power](http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a275/PaulinSaudi/Decorated%20images/carriers.gif) Chill. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2011, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chinas-got-a-carrier/584856/10 "2011-06-09T15:58:27Z")
[QUOTE=Tamerlane] The old, never-completed Varyag. Substantial vessel, but still rather smaller than American super-carriers. [/QUOTE] Yeah, I couldn’t remember the link. It’s one of the Soviets heavy aircraft cruisers, IIRC. Not exactly something to strike fear into even the Indian Navy’s heart, let alone cause the US to start wetting the bed over. I thought I remember hearing it was going to be made into a casino or resort or something like that. Guess plans changed. 😛 -XT ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2011, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chinas-got-a-carrier/584856/11 "2011-06-09T16:00:43Z")
> [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > [The Carrier Balance of Power](http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a275/PaulinSaudi/Decorated%20images/carriers.gif) > > Chill. Thailand has a carrier? 😕 What for? Anti Piracy ops in the straits of Malacca? (Heh. Just read the wiki entry on it.) ---
**Author:** ![Sablicious](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bbce88/32.png) [@Sablicious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sablicious)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2011, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chinas-got-a-carrier/584856/12 "2011-06-09T16:33:51Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > A “refurbished Russian vessel”? 😛 I’m not seeing the bed wetting possibilities here. When China builds 10 of it’s own designed supercarriers then we might need to be in full bed wetting mode. US military analyst already predicted ten by 2020. Four by 2015 already confirmed; two of which will be nuclear-powered. Is that the bouquet of pee-pee I smell…? 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2011, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chinas-got-a-carrier/584856/13 "2011-06-09T16:34:26Z")
You mean that hulk that’s been under contruction since 1985 might finally be launched? Color me not scared and wake me when its properly comissioned. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2011, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chinas-got-a-carrier/584856/14 "2011-06-09T16:37:54Z")
[QUOTE=Sablicious] US military analyst already predicted ten by 2020. Four by 2015 already confirmed; two of which will be nuclear-powered. [/QUOTE] Cite? This seems an incredible claim. China is going to build 10 air craft carriers in less than 10 years?? What is the evidence that they have even laid down that many hulls?? How would they freaking train the CREWS in less than 10 years? Where would they find the naval air craft to man the things in that time frame? How would they build the logistics to support them in that time frame?? Seriously, you are going to need some cites to swallow this one. > [@](#): > > Is that the bouquet of pee-pee I smell…? It has the odor of bullshit to me…or, perhaps the distinctive odor of too much weed. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2011, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chinas-got-a-carrier/584856/15 "2011-06-09T16:44:06Z")
2 by 2020, maybe, according to this 2011 report [http://fpc.state.gov/documents/organization/156520.pdf](http://fpc.state.gov/documents/organization/156520.pdf) “China Naval Modernization: Implications for U.S. Navy Capabilities—Background and Issues for Congress” ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2011, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chinas-got-a-carrier/584856/16 "2011-06-09T16:46:03Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > Cite? This seems an incredible claim. China is going to build 10 air craft carriers in less than 10 years?? What is the evidence that they have even laid down that many hulls?? How would they freaking train the CREWS in less than 10 years? Where would they find the naval air craft to man the things in that time frame? How would they build the logistics to support them in that time frame?? > > Seriously, you are going to need some cites to swallow this one. > > It has the odor of bullshit to me…or, perhaps the distinctive odor of too much weed. > > -XT > **[Chinese aircraft carrier programme](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Future_Chinese_aircraft_carrier#Current_status)** > > As of 2025\[update\], the Chinese People's Liberation Army Navy (PLAN) has two active carriers, the Liaoning and Shandong, with the third, Fujian, currently undergoing sea trials. A fourth carrier, currently called "Type 004" and featuring nuclear propulsion, has been under construction since 2024. Wang Yunfei, a retired PLA Navy officer and other naval experts projected in 2018/2019 that China might possess five or six aircraft carriers by the 2030s. > In the years after 1985 China acquired four ... In my opinion, the stated timeframe is… overly optimistic. If they counted the foreign hulls already purchased, they would only have to build six, assuming that the foreign hulls were made operational. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2011, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chinas-got-a-carrier/584856/17 "2011-06-09T16:48:03Z")
> [@mlees](#): > > Thailand has a carrier? 😕 What for? Anti Piracy ops in the straits of Malacca? > > (Heh. Just read the wiki entry on it.) Hull number “ **911** ”, how cool is that? ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2011, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chinas-got-a-carrier/584856/18 "2011-06-09T16:57:10Z")
> [@mlees](#): > > [Chinese aircraft carrier programme - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Future_Chinese_aircraft_carrier#Current_status) > > In my opinion, the stated timeframe is… overly optimistic. If they counted the foreign hulls already purchased, they would only have to build six, assuming that the foreign hulls were made operational. Besides the 2 carriers that article mentions are between 50 and 60,00 tons while current American carriers come in a +100,000 tons. That’s a big difference when the whole point of a carrier is to have lots of planes that can project power. ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2011, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chinas-got-a-carrier/584856/19 "2011-06-09T16:57:34Z")
> [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > Hull number “ **911** ”, how cool is that? Commissioned into the Thai Navy in 1997. Coincidence. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2011, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chinas-got-a-carrier/584856/20 "2011-06-09T16:58:15Z")
[QUOTE=mlees] In my opinion, the stated timeframe is… overly optimistic. If they counted the foreign hulls already purchased, they would only have to build six, assuming that the foreign hulls were made operational. [/QUOTE] Where does it say 10 air craft carriers? I see them mentioning possibly two (small) home built carriers (supposedly to be ready by 2012…which, if it were true, they wouldn’t be talking about refurbishing a carrier designed in the 60’s and unfinished when the Soviets went tits up). Googling shows that the Chinese bought several carriers from the Soviets, but none of them would be very easy to rebuild (one was the Minsk, which was being used as some sort of theme park). > [@](#): > > Current status > > In mid-2007, Chinese domestic sources revealed that China had purchased a total of four sets of aircraft carrier landing systems from Russia[13] and this was confirmed by Russian manufacturers. However, experts disagreed on the usage of these systems: while some have claimed that it is a clear evidence of the construction of an aircraft carrier, others claim these systems are used to train pilots for a future ship. In August, 2008, Mr. Huang Qiang (黄强), the speaker of the Commission of Science, Technology and Industry for National Defense announced to the public at news conference that China had mastered all of the technologies for an aircraft carrier, and would build aircraft carriers in the future when time was deemed right. The strongest proof of a Chinese aircraft carrier also appeared in 2008, from an official Chinese governmental source when the training program of jet fighter pilots for warship captains were resumed: PLA Daily (解放军报 published the news of Dalian Warship Academy (大连舰艇学院) accepting a total of 50 jet fighter pilots for warship captain training in 2008, and in comparison to the first class that was held more than one and half a decades ago at Guangzhou Warship Academy (广州舰艇学院), the training has been lengthened to four years. Resumption of this plan is viewed by foreign observers and military analysts as another step in preparation for an aircraft carrier entering service.[citation needed] > > In late 2008, and through early 2009, there have been foreign reports that China will start building two 50,000-60,000 ton aircraft carriers that may be finished early 2012.[1][5] Whether the two ships will be similar to the Varyag (ski jump) or American carriers (catapult) is not yet known. > > There are also some reports of a possibility of China building two nuclear powered Type 089 aircraft carriers,[14] though how reliable these are can be questioned. According to the Nippon News Network (NNN), research and development on the planned carriers is being carried out at a military research facility in Wuhan. NNN states that the actual carriers will be constructed at a shipyard in Shanghai.[15] Kanwa Intelligence Review reports that the second carrier to be constructed will likely be assigned to Qingdao.[16] > > It was also reported in 2009 that the Brazilian Navy will train PLA naval officers in carrier operations in exchange for assistance on nuclear submarine technology and additional funding.[17] > > According to a February 2011 report in the The Daily Telegraph, the Chinese military has constructed a concrete aircraft carrier flight deck to use for training carrier pilots and carrier operations personnel. The deck was constructed on top of a government building near Wuhan.[18] > > On 7 June 2011, People’s Liberation Army Chief of the General Staff Chen Bingde confirmed that China was constructing its own aircraft carrier. He stated he would provide no further details until it was complete.[19] I could see the Chinese building a couple of small carriers to gain some experience. They would be like what the Marine Corp has, perhaps. I could see them referbing an old Soviet carrier. But building their own, modern and fully capable air craft carrier capable of launching modern fighters? Let alone 10 of the things in 9 years?? No way. Even if they did the impossible and built the things, what would they do with them? It will take them years to figure out how to effectively use and support ONE big carrier…let alone an entire fleet. -XT [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chinas-got-a-carrier/584856.md?page=2)