justwannano wrote:
More specifically, a mainland Chinese news service with English translation? Taiwan’s not exactly on the best of terms with mainland China.
I’m not saying the U.S. is completely at fault and China is innocent – I’m just pointing out it’s not the “those Commie Reds mugged our boys while they were just out mindin’ their own business.” Let’s face it, we got caught with our hands in the cookie jar.
Yeah, but Clinton had the brains to apologize. Last I heard, Dubya was sitting tight and refusing to acknowledge any wrongdoing.
No, you’re not.
I’ve been trying since my first posting on this thread to suggest that we don’t have access to all the information, and that it’s really A. too early and B. not in our best interest to play the blame game. I’ve gotten airplane lectures in response.
And I couldn’t agree more about poorly thought out tough talk potentially adding to the problem.
Here’s a Chinese news site.
I don’t know its origin but you can read it in Portaguese if you like.
Here’s The People’s Daily, which I believe is the party’s official organ.
I might as well join the chorus. I think there are too many real issues for this incident to weigh too heavily on either party in the long run. I think it’s much more likely to serve as an additional grievance for the Chinese, one they can run out periodically, but nothing that’s going to alter policy. Besides, it’s hardly unprecedented for one country to buzz ships, subs, planes, and diplomats of another and both sides know it. Remember when the Kursk blew. I’m not assigning blame but there was a US tracker sub right on its tail.
I seem to be in the minority here but I don’t think the US will be seeing that tricked out plane any time soon, unless its crew was able to fry every circuit and wipe every disk. US and China will announce a joint effort to investigate the accident and to determine how best to avoid a repetition. The crew should be in Okinawa within a few days at most.
RJUNG –
This is far from clear. If the plane was in international airspace (or what is widely recognized to be international airspace) and if it was engaged in routine coastal reconnaissance only (as opposed to active espionage); and if the collision took place as a result of the actions of the Chinese fighter pilot, then how could we be said to have our hands in the cookie jar?
Clinto apologized because it was clear that we had bombed the embassy (whoops!). It is by no means certain at this point that the U.S. has anything to apologize for in this latest incident.
With our hands in the cookie jar? I would have to agree with what I just heard on NBC news (not the oracle, for sure) that this was a routine flight for reconnaissance in international airspace. If we wanted to be sneaky about it, I really don’t think we’d have a big propellor-driven plane clunking along for all to see. This sort of “spying” is something countries do - the Russians did it to us, we to them - and intercepting the spy plane is part of the game. Running into each other isn’t.
I’ve yet to see any evidence that we did anything wrong - for what should he apologize? If it turns out that we had strayed into their internationally recognized airspace, then, yes, an apology is in order - and perhaps even compensation for the lost plane and pilot. However, if we were out over international waters intercepting signals - what is wrong about that?
Well peeps, its been quite some time since I’ve been on, but what a great topic to start on.
They fly a fighter jet into our spy plane, correct? They hold our guys and plane hostage. Cold War 2, coming to a theater near you.
I’ve been waiting for something like this to happen. First it was The Soviet Union. Everything was all peachy keen during World War II, you know them being our allies and all. Then they decide to get paranoid when the war ends. We draw away from europe, they charge in, one thing leads to the next and we’re threating to throw nuclear missiles up each others asses.
Now on to my next subject, John Chinaman. Yeah, they are not really our enemies, deffinitely not allies. They’re our, business partners, shall I say? They need our hard currency, and we need their cheap plastic toys… So, being the backward control freak commies they are, they see big plane with U.S flag and decide to go kamikaze on us. Yeah, they’re thinking they’re a sovreign state, just like the USSR was, or so Kruschev said so blatantly, and they think they can get by with anything. Then they threaten us if we do any business with Taiwan, because they’re a “rogue nation”.
I see a few problems…
1)We can take our business elsewhere. Don’t know if they realize that or not. I’ve always thought that we could send some of those jobs up the Russia way and try to save their economy, or just send them to Taiwan, just to p*ss them off.
2)Don’t threaten us. Especially with a redneck in the White House.(don’t get me wrong. I stand behind him 100%) He doesn’t like you already, I wouldn’t push it. And clearly, he has control of the House and Senate. You’re asking for more than you can handle. I don’t think the world wants another cold war.
3)Leave Taiwan alone. We were once a “rogue Nation” also. And if I’m not mistaken, we kicked @ss. Communism doesn’t work fellas, so give it up.
4)Can’t we all just get along? Hll no. We’re human. We’re competitive. This is just a big dck contest.
So back to the Cold War 2 issue. I’ll be heading off to college in another year to study International Affairs. Hopefully I’ll get a job with the State Department or the CIA. And hopefully, I’ll be heading over the China way. Except I won’t be flying a plane around…
From the teenager point of view on world issues, this is Shagadelicmysteryman signing off.
Returning the plane may seem like the proper thing to do. Unfortunately, the United States and her allies have set a bad precedent. In 1976, a Soviet MiG-25, flown by a defecting 1st lieutenant in the Soviet air force, landed in Japan. At the time, the MiG-25 was the latest in Soviet military aviation, and little was known about it in the West. Despite demands from the Kremlin to immediately return the plane, U.S. and Japanese officials were in no hurry to let go of their new toy. The MiG-25 was taken to a U.S. airbase and was carefully disassembled and examined over a two month period, before finally being returned to the Soviet Union in November 1976.
I think that it is inevitable that the Chinese officials will drag their feet as much as possible, just like their U.S. counterparts did in 1976, in order to allow their engineers to go over the plane. And, I don’t think that we can blame them. The U.S. crew will probably be released within days, but we should all be surprised if the plane is returned anytime soon.
Reports indicate that the U.S. crew started destroying sensitive equipment and information before setting down on Chinese territory, but it is not clear how far they got. Just like the Soviet Union in 1976, the U.S. may find it necessary to re-engineer some of the systems, if they are found to have been compromised.
You’re kidding, right, The Ryan? These people dedicated their lives to the service of their country. It is their DUTY to die to protect the security of the country. I’m not currently a member of the armed forces because I have no desire to die while spying on a second-world nation in Asia. Once they’ve signed up for the job, they should be willing to perform it.
I bet that George H. Bush, the one who was president when the Cold War finally ended, wishes to slap his son for restarting it. 
Anyway, it looks as if the Chinese won a big prize in the ongoing espionage game. And they didn’t have to pay for any presidential campaign for it. George W. can huff and puff all he wants, but the Chinese is not known for rushing things in these types of situations. As mentioned before, in the name of investigating the crash of one of their own planes (unfortunately for the hawks, a legitimate reason), they will thoroughly inspect the Navy ship that landed in their country.
just remembered this story, where the Chinese had recent cause to be concerned about US intentions.
Also, in my original post, I never said they had to ride the bird all the way to the water - while more evidence now indicates they had precious few moments to decide what to do, at the time, I was assuming there might have been a chance to abandon the plane after pointing it farther out to sea. Or, worst case, make a splash landing and hope for the best.
I did NOT mean let’s nosedive it into the ocean and die for our country “yeeeehhaaaww!” style as it seems The Ryan thought I was implying.
However, I also agree that when you enlist voluntarily, you take on the obligation to defend the nation and its secrets even if the cost of doing such is your own life. If this were conscription, my views would probably differ, but it isn’t.
Right, right, what Super_head said. I certainly don’t expect them to nosedive it, but I also don’t think they should have landed it in the hands of our largest enemy, either. Ditch it in the Pacific, or bail out, or what have you, but certainly don’t land it at Beijing Int’l. (And yes, I know that they didn’t land it in Beijing, but it just sounded too good to not use it).
They aren’t our enemies…yet. They are trading rivals.
On another note, anyone ever read that Tom Clancy Book “The Bear and the Dragon”? I’m telling you, the man is a prophet.
Rjung:
“Yeah, but” you blamed Dubya for the incident. You don’t think that past problem has anything to do with China’s bruised feelings, is that it?
wring:
**
Well thank you for your tepid acknowledgement of a point that, essentially, every nation on the planet Earth with the exception of China recognizes.
If you look at the link I provided to the Navy’s web site in a response to Zarathustra on Page 1, you’ll see a pretty detailed chronology of China’s aggession to boat and air traffic in the South China Sea, in internationally accepted territorial waters. You’ll see that it appears to be by design by China, with a larger goal in mind involving domination of the region.
If it turns out we were violating their internationally accepted airspace, and intentionally, to a large extent we deserve what we got. Given China’s demonstrable history in the region, however, I guess I’m not as immediately inclined to dismiss the assertion of the United States Military officials who say we weren’t in their air space as you are.
Be that way, so long as you’re back here, loud and proud, decrying what China’s done when the facts come out to back the current, reasoned evaluation of what information is available.
**
So give an example of a provocative action by the U.S. against China that even roughly equates to the list of actions taken by the Chinese to boats and airplanes in and over the South China Sea, as cited in the link provided earlier that you obviously haven’t looked at.
**
The Bay of Pigs and the Cuban Missile Crisis are two different things. And I don’t believe this has the potential to be like the Crisis in that it will take us to the brink of nuclear war; I think it could be the same kind of tense standoff that could possibly become some form of military clash. You’re not the first to have wildly misinterpreted that statement from my OP, though, so I hope it’s sufficiently clarified now.
In fact, from what I’m seeing on the news, the rhetoric has toned down some today, which is good. Now, if they don’t fuck around with us about getting our service men and women back, maybe this won’t be as ugly as it might otherwise be.
**
They certainly have a lot to be upset about with regard to our bombing of their embassy. It was in a war zone, essentially, however, and similar things have been known to happen in times of war. Not excusing it in the least, however – particularly the bungling on the part of our intelligence that led to the bombing.
However, that doesn’t in the least justify China’s bullying of aircraft and ships in international airspace and waters. Please agree with me on that, wring. I’m getting a little concerned about the tenor of your post after post, link after link here.
I’d rather be known as a Bush apologist, personally.
**
“Nudging up on their sovereign space” is a pretty commonly accepted practice by all powerful nations, everywhere, so long as they don’t violate it.
Who do you think is about 20 miles off both of our coasts in Submarines?
**
And this is another one of those cases, IMHO, where a certain segment of our society that feels it’s more magnanimous to talk about there being no clear right and wrong are off-base. Sometimes there is a clear right and wrong. Don’t pretend like that’s not true.
For example, if our currently available evidence proves true, that China once again was acting in a threatening way to an aircraft in international airspace; that one of their jets, buzzing the plane in an aggressive manner, eventually clipped the plane; and that the other jet fired shots and forced our plane to land in China – I guess I can say with some confidence that we are in the right, and they are in the wrong.
I asked you for a cite about how other countries feel about China aggressively deploying aircraft and boats in international waters and airspace. You offered none. That you were able to find a cite from a story that used this incident as an opportunity to criticize Bush and praise Clinton tells me more about your reading habits than it does counter my point.
Subject:
Home for Easter?
Date:
Tue, 03 Apr 2001 21:39:59 -0400
From:
Richard Culpeper <culpeper@tbaytel.net>
To:
chinaembassy_us@fmprc.gov.cn
CC:
culpeper@tbaytel.net
Dear Sir:
Will the American military personnel who crash landed in China be permitted to return home to the United States in time for their Easter celebrations with their families?
Yours truly,
Richard Culpeper
culpeper@tbaytel.net
Regarding the rather alarmist tone of some of the media reports, and some posts to this thread, many people seem to have forgotten that the US and its clients have lost numerous intelligence aircraft to USSR and Chinese antiaircraft fire or missiles since the late '40’s. These shootdowns, with their attendant loss of life, were potentially much more serious than the current flap. The fact that the crew of this aircraft are (so far) being kept in a guest house and not imprisoned for a show trial, IMO, just highlights how far our relations with China have come since the days of Mao.
IMHO, some of the media, particularly the more right-wing elements, have been overhyping the situation (certainly not unheard of – remember the Maine!). Personally I’ll start worrying a bit more if the crew are not released within a week or so.
Probably more important than the back-engineering suggested by other posters is that knowing the data collection measures available aboard an EP-3E would allow the Chinese to take more effective countermeasures to prevent the compromising of their military communications.
Sua: I didn’t see your response as a personal attack on me. I’m surprised if you saw mine as one.
I also respect you, and frequently disagree with you, and I do on your assertion as well. If our service men and women are imprisoned, harmed, tried as spies, etc., this could go ‘hot’ in some way, militarily. Ditto, as you said, if we decide to enforce our rights in international waters and airspace with military force, and they decide to assert their claims of territoriality likewise.
I’m curious: What gives us the right to eavesdrop on their communications, even if we were outside their airspace? They do it, so we do it? Whatever happened to “Do unto others as you would have them do unto you”? This is more like “Do unto others as they have done unto you”.
You’re probably going to be busy the next four years.