China's got our men and our plane

Great Debates
161

I think this is blind jingoistic rah-rah-patriotism at work here. “We would never do that, because we’re the good guys!”

Dream on.

Not an outright enemy, but pretty darn close. Dubya has been painting China as a military competitor for months now, or hadn’t you noticed? And it’s no secret that his puppet masters in the GOP have been teed off for years about how Clinton was actually (gasp!) friendly to the PRC and would love to revoke China’s “favorite trading nation” status. Wanna bet this bruhaha is gonna be a perfect excuse to revoke that?

I’m tempted to draw some parallels to Elian Gonzales and how he was prevented from seeing his father for months on end, but nah.

More rah-rah jingoism here, unless you’re some sort of omnipotent superbeing who knows that this mess was “clearly” China’s fault.

162

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Don’t worry about it. It took me more then a few post to get the hang of it. Heck, a moderator emailed me and threatened to whip me with a wet noodle if I didn’t quit making post unreadable.

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I can understand that. But we view making an apology when we did nothing wrong as being insulting.

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What else should we say? We apologize for the death of your pilot when heran into our big, slow, prop driven plane.

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I, and many other Americans, have a problem with the word apology in this case. We did nothing that requires an apology. China was the one who did something wrong so they should apologize.

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Somehow I have the feeling that if we were in their soverign territory they would have fired upon the plane.

If China wants to play hard ball then I think the US should return the favor. But then I haven’t been a fan of China for many years.

Marc

163

Flatout lie. Elian’s father refused to come for several months, insisting that the US ship the kid back. However, this is not germane to the discussion at hand.

I fail to understand why some of you are so willing to believe that the US is automatically wrong in any situation.
Do you people know anything about the PRC government? They’re liars, murderers, and villains, the lot of them. That’s not jingoism, that’s documented fact. Heck, they still deny that anyone was killed in Tiananmen Square. They are locking up members of the Falun Gong sect despite their having committed no crimes. The Chinese government is still holding the 12 year old current Panchen Lama in prison for fear he might prove as troublesome to them as the Dalai Lama and has refused to give out any information on his whereabouts. I point out this information to show what kind of people we are dealing with.

The Chinese government has as much crediblity as Mark Serlin, as far as I am concerned, and I am deeply disappointed in those of you who so hate your own country that you would automatically take the word of dictators over your own government’s. For shame!

164

Mind you, the previous post only applies to the Chinese leadership. The Chinese people are A-OK, and the kindness and friendliness I was shown there made my trip to China truly memorable, especially the really nice waitress I chatted with at Mickey Mao’s in Yangshuo.

anyway
No apology
Give our people and our plane back, in that order
No more kowtowing to dictators

165

RJUNG, you are wielding a double-edged sword which can just as easily be used on you. You say to ZARATHRUSTRA, regarding his assertion that we would not demand an apology:

But you also said:

More mindless America bashing, unless you’re some sort of omnipotent superbeing wo knows what the U.S. would “clearly” do.

166

Looks like you’re right. Here is the original image.

167

Actually, I just read this article from former U.S. Air Force Captain Dale Brown:

“…you shouldn’t be surprised to learn that (if the situation were reversed) the U.S. would be doing much the same as the Chinese military is doing.”

“The plane would immediately be searched from top to bottom looking for explosives, chemical or biological weapons or other immediate hazards. Yes, this might look like an aggressive move, but it’s a necessary one.”

“The crew would also be taken into custody, separated and secured so no one could trigger a device or try to hurt anyone else.”

“The plane would get a thorough examination by trained intelligence officers and engineers, even if it meant dismantling it. Yes, the plane is some other nation’s property, but it would be in our territory, not by our invitation.”
Again, this is what we (as in the United States, rah rah) would do if the situation were reversed – these are considered normal procedures by our own military. So why are folks whining when China does the same thing?

And despite what you and Goboy think, patriotism does not mean shouting “My country, right or wrong!” whenever a screw-up occurs. Just because you love a country doesn’t mean you should blind yourself to its flaws (or the morons running it), otherwise you end up making a fool of yourself:

Finally, to steal from jmullaney in another thread, all this mindless jingoism reminds me too much of this cartoon.

168

First of all, I just wanna thank everybody in this thread for making this just the all-around nicest GD thread I’ve ever been in. This is what Great Debates is all about, folks. WTG! :smiley:

Second, a couple of people mentioned earlier in the thread watching the Chinese stock market for a possible indicator of their tactics. Dunno anything about that, but here’s a website on Chinese stock markets in general.
http://www.asiadragons.com/china/finance/stock_market/index.shtml

And here’s the Shanghai Stock Market from CNN’s Asia-Pacific markets page.

So, is this good, or bad?

Third, dunno much about chess, but if this whole thing were a chess game, what would this move count as?

http://www.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/asiapcf/east/04/04/china.gao.formalarrest/i ndex.html

Turning up the heat, or just blowing smoke?

169

“mindless jingoism?”

Most of the people participating in this thread have offered logic, past precedents, and links to back up their assertions.

You’re the one America-bashing out your rectum, rjung, with Needs2Know not far behind.

Did we fly similar flights when Clinton was president? Did Chinese fighter jets engage said flights in a reckless and provacative manner when Clinton was president? The answer is “yes” to both, and links have been recently provided that prove it.

As far as your news link goes, rjung - Yes, we’d look at the plane. Yes, we’d separate the crew from the plane.

We wouldn’t, however, call a crew on a plane doing routine surveillance in international airspace, that was forced to make an emergency landing within our borders, after a mayday call, caused by one of our jets buzzing them and crashing with them, “lawbreakers.” We wouldn’t detain said crew for a week or more.

And some of you are trying to draw parallels between a child custody battle and an incident involving a military encounter? Please.

wring said much earlier to reserve judgement on which aircraft caused the crash until we had more facts. Here is yet more information for those of you who just aren’t sure who’s to blame for this.

170

The Washington Post today cited some unnamed “Western sources” as saying that the collision occured as the EP-3 initiated a turn to the left.

Of course, even if this is correct, it does not mean that the Chinese jet was not too close to the U.S. plane (assuming, of course, that the Chinese pilot was not under the impression that the EP-3 was violating Chinese airspace).

While I agree that the United States may have nothing to apologize for, I have to take exception to the implied statement that the pilot was inexperienced or poorly trained. Admittedly, the training of Chinese pilots may not match the training given to U.S. pilots. However, the Chinese pilot who apparently died had about 10 years of experience flying fighter jets. Furthermore, he was apparently one of the better students while at military university, and he did not come across as a hothead to others in the Chinese military.

Of course, that he was experienced does not mean that he was flying in a safe manner or that he did not exceed his capability this time. However, this only begs a follow up question. Apparently, the Chinese fighter pilots that tag U.S. surveillance planes as they sweep by the coast of China have become more aggressive in recent months (at least according to statements by U.S. officials). Unless Chinese pilots are suddenly feeling less regard for their own lives, one is led to wonder whether they are merely acting on orders from higher up. Not that this would exonerate the Chinese air force; but it seems to me that the pilot may be taking a bad rap for something that was not fully his own making.

171

That’s all unsupported wishful speculation, Milo – you should know better than to use that here at the SDMB.

But I suppose when you’re a happy little patriotic parrot, you’re willing to believe the best of Washington and assume the worst of the Designated Enemy™, simply because you were told to…

(I would like to see a quick and happy ending to the whole mess. Unfortunately, it’s attitudes like yours that makes me worry about the long-term repercussions even if that were to occur.)

172

BTW, Great post, Jodi.

I’m glad we have some consensus here. To the extent that the plane is sovereign territory, the US would not respect it.

The point, I think, is that the Chinese may not consider such surveillance to be “routine”. As I quoted from the NYT earlier, “…the American military, which does not tolerate such close surveillance of United States territory, regards these operations as entirely routine”. Emphasis added.

Our language is less strident than Commy-speak. What exactly happened is a matter for investigation. Democratic leaders use more guarded speech at times, because they know that their words can come back to haunt them.

Probably not. But I suspect that the Chinese will release the crew within a fortnight and will not cause them undue physical harm. They are smarter than that.

The Chinese stock market seems to be taking things is stride. I think that’s great news: it indicates that calmer heads will prevail.

Look gang, the Chinese have 1.2 billion people and one of the fastest growing economies in the world. They will overtake the West, we will witness a set of crises and misunderstandings in upcoming years. I only hope that by the time they achieve economic supremacy (towards the end of this century perhaps) that we will pass the baton to a regime that has fully embraced democracy.

Taking the longer view, the tea leaves look fortuitous to this forecaster. Falon Gong notwithstanding, the average urban Chinese resident has experienced more freedom in the past 10 years than his forefathers experienced over the preceding 2000.

173

… so it’s your impression, opinion, belief, that the United States would label the crew of a plane that emergency-landed in our territory under similar circumstances “lawbreakers,” rjung? Lawbreakers for landing in our country without permission, even if they’d issued a mayday? And upon what do you base whatever your opinion is?

174

International Law Favors “Sovereign Immunity” for Plane, Experts Say. But that is only if the plane had been over international waters at the time of the accident. China says it had been over their waters, so that is why they are saying they had a right to search the plane.

On the left side of the page is a link: “Graphic: Dealing with sensitve data.” According to that graphic, the crew is NOT necessarily obligated to destroy its equipment in this situation, only the data. (IOW, the software, not the hardware, goes first. And most data can be erased with a powerful magnet and paper can be shredded.) If the commander decides they should destroy the hardware, they are supposed to destroy it “inside a special container, using a small pyrotechnic device.” Though they can also use sledgehammers. This article explores this in more detail.

About halfway down the first article, it quotes Barry E. Carter, professor of international law at Georgetown that China HAS claimed sovereignty over the entire South China Sea and calls it “outrageous.”

This just in: “U.S. considering joint investigation of plane collision.” China may agree to this.

175

Personally, I prefer India. They too have a fast growing economy, and are crucially different: except for one botched attempt by Indira Gandhi, they’ve been democratic for their entire history as an independent nation since throwing off the British yolk. If history is any guide, by the way, India will do far better than China economically, because democracy is inherently more stable, and therefore a better risk, than dictatorship.
That was a hijack, I realize. With apologies to all, I return you to your regular thread…

176

Stick around, I may be about to lower the bar.

RJUNG says:

GOBOY has never said, much less shouted, “My country right or wrong.” Neither have I. What we have said – repeatedly at this point – is that it is far too early to be questioning the actions or motives of either the plane crew or the government as a whole when no one knows precisely what happened. No one has suggested being blind to the country’s flaws; we have merely suggested that you don’t work so hard to manufacture flaws yourself. And kindly do not presume to tell me what I think.

Furthermore, it takes balls of solid brass for you to interpret a position as “mindless jingoism” just because it doesn’t happen to accord with your own – as if the position held by those who disagree with you is undertaken without thought and without regard to the truth of the situation. I have not derided you for holding your position, disagree with it though I may – and I do – so you would do well to dial down the rhetoric.

Speaking of, let’s just take a look at some of your gems from this thread, and determine who is posting with an agenda totally unrelated to the incident in question:

And having gone to the trouble of cutting and pasting your off-topic and gratuitous vitriol, you in turn may find and post ONE post by me that reflects a lack of thought or blind adhesion to the party line such as would serve to make me look foolish. If you cannot do so, they you can just take your accusations of “mindless jingoism” and eat them with a nice sauce bernaise.

177

Okay, I know this thread is ultimately aimed at discussing US/China relations, but there are certain misconceptions that are annoying me. I hope y’all don’t mind my nitpicking. ‘Fighting ignorance’ and all that :stuck_out_tongue:

SIGINT is an important part of US - indeed, any 1st world nation’s - interest. What that plane was doing is pretty common. I could tell you stories about that time that…but I can’t, cos I’d have to shoot you. Plus I signed a whole bunch of papers that gave ominous warnings about USC Code Section blah blah blah. Do a Google search on SIGINT and/or signal intelligence and see what you come up with.

The gear in the nose cone of that plane used to collect weather data to avoid bad flying conditions. No intel info at all there.

And one more note.

Law of the sea states that smaller, more maneuverable craft make way for larger, more lumbering craft. Fore, aft, port, starboard - lots of stuff that once comprised ‘The Law of the Sea’ is now matter-of-fact when it comes to ‘The Law of the Air’ (ok, so I just made up the latter term. Sue me.).

The P3 is a military version of the Lockheed Electra Airliner. The Electra had the dubious distinction of being put into production just when the 707 was coming out. Guess which plane “won” (this bit a direct quote from someone “in the know”.). The EP-3 had its MAD boom removed and a large radar was added, as well as an upper and lower “canoe” with various antennas. These changes make the EP-3E more difficult to fly and harder to ditch than a regular P-3C.

I’d also like to note that the Soviet Navy had (have?) the habit of parking their smaller ships in front of US ships doing an at-sea procedure known as ‘underway replenishment’ (again, do a google.com search). Now I’m not saying that the Chinese military would do the same thing, but…well, who taught the Chinese how to fly MiGs?

178

You keep using this word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

Jingoism is dependant, by definition, by aggression, or an eagerness to fight. Had the American plane engaged the chinese jets, which would have been as ludicrous as many of the posts you’ve been making here, you could defend the belligerence necessary to define jingoism.

So far, the only good example of jingoism put forth so far is evidenced by your behavior.

Dictionary.com is your friend. If you use it when you only think you know what you’re talking about, you won’t make a fool out of yourself so often.

179

Rjung, I defy you to cut and paste even one sentence from my posts that said, let alone shouted, “My country, right or wrong.” You don’t help your case by injecting anti-Bush hysteria or being casual with the facts. You’ll notice I called the American diplomatic effort “hamhanded.” How is that characterized as blindly patriotic jingoism?

My points are these:
I find it reprehensible that any American would automatically brand one’s own government liars and unquestioningly accept the account of the Chinese leadership, who have a very poor track record when it comes to telling the truth about anything.

Right now, there is more heat than light being generated over this incident between the two nations, and I would like more information before we rush to judgement.

China is way out of line from the American point of view in demanding an apology. However, it makes sense from the Chinese point of view. In the Confucian view, in a disupute between the elder and the younger, the younger party always apologizes, no matter the real point of guilt. Guess who the Chinese see as the younger party?

The Chinese have a strong love/hate relationship with the US. On the one hand, their young people have assimilated our culture in a big way (you wouldn’t believe the NBA following in China, plus the ubiquitous KFCs and Mickey D’s in the larger cities of China), yet at the same time, the Chinese still resent the West for colonizing China in the 19th century. They also resent us for muscling in on what they believe should be their exclusive sphere of hegemony.

On the other hand, the US has strategic interests in Asia that must be preserved. You have two very different cultural and poltical POVs clashing, and there will have to be some compromise reached that will allow the Chinese leadership to save face both internally and abroad, and also allow the US to get its people and plane back.

Oh, and please try to be bigger about President Bush than the Republicans were about Clinton. Mind you, Clinton did some stupid things, but the GOP accusations of murder, rape, and theft were way off base. In the interest of national unity and being Americans first and partisans last (if at all), let’s give President Bush our support in this instance (although I’d be a lot happier if he had some folks who actually spoke Chinese and know the culture doing the negotiating).

180

Ok boys and girls let’s get this straight…

I HAVE NOT BEEN AMERICA BASHING! I was the first one to point out that militarily the Chinese were not our friends and had been waiting for an opportunity to play international mind fuck games with us…go back and look at my post. Well last night on the news a few experts repeated the same damned thing.

I was pointing out that all of our recent “accidents” made us look like a bunch of bumbling fools to those in the international community that don’t like us very much. And China has taken this opportunity to milk it for all it’s worth. We’re saying that they struck our plane but the Chinese didn’t bomb our embassy or just kill a boat load of kid on a fishing trip a few weeks ago. For all of those countries that think we’re just a little bit arrogant and self righteous who do you think they’re going to side with!

Also I believe I have every right as an American to question our policies. I’m not the only one that feels this way either. Why must we protect Japan, Taiwan, and the rest of Southeast Asia? Perhaps it’s in our best interest to do so. If that’s then case then fine. But let’s be realistic about this China wants to run their part of the world, just like we control ours. I know this all sounds very simplistic and I not very good at expressing myself. But last night I listened to experienced men say some of the very things I had been expressing.

Should we apologize? Hell I don’t know. I sure as hell don’t think we should apologize if it’s going to give the Chinese a by to start trying to strong arm us. But I do think we’ve been fucking up a lot lately and left ourselves wide open for this.

Needs2know