In all seriousness, they did say that in Chinese culture it’s perceived as weak or bad to not know something or to need help - what they said is very similar to the Wikipedia entry on face. And I could definitely understand that - culture or not, I’m pretty hesitant to admit I don’t know something myself. They said they appreciated the amount of training I was offering and understood that I didn’t mind if they came to me. (In fact, every employee I’ve had has thanked me for the amount of time I’ll spend teaching new concepts).
In the end, though, we went through that discussion a couple of times without really solving the problem.
A friend of mine in high school (one with a 7-syllable last name) was born in Iran and came to the US around age 12. He was mostly Americanized, except for his punctuality.
When we planned a surprise birthday party for him, we told him to arrive at 6, even though we wouldn’t be at the location to start setting up until 7. He showed up at 7:30, which was exactly the time we’d planned on being ready to start.
So that’s how you do it, as far as I can tell - tell people a time that’s earlier than you think you’ll be ready and you both just expect that you might have to wait a couple of hours for you to both be there and ready at the same time.
Honestly, I don’t know that I ever got much of an opinion or response on that other than that they understood. (That might be as much my fault as any cultural issues. I’m not really the type to ask how someone feels about something like that… as long as we both understand and there’s been an opportunity for explanation or negotiation on it, I figure my job is done.)
Some Americans do this too, though admittedly to a lesser extent. If you watched The Office last night, this was pretty much what Jim did. His boss asked him to do a “run down” of the clients and fax it to the “distributor list”. He had absolutely no idea what any of that meant, but was afraid to ask for clarifications. Granted, this is a TV show, and his boss kind of hates him, but it’s easy to see something similar can happen in real life.
My marketing professor told a story about when she worked for IBM in Japan (I know, Japan, China - but the social dynamics are close enough, especially compared to North America). She asked a Japanese co-worker if he could do something for her, and he replied, “That would be very difficult”. My professor figures, ok, it’ll be difficult, it’ll probably take him a week, but still do-able. She checks back with him later on how it’s going, again he says, “That would be very difficult.” She finally figures it out - he’s not allowed to say no to her, or she would lose face. “That would be very difficult” was this guy’s way of saying no way, no how, never.
I can tell you that in the Dominican Republic, party invitations that say “8:00” are for parties that don’t really expect people to arrive until 9:30 or later.
If for some bizarre reason you wanted to let people know that your party was at 8 and they needed to get there actually at 8, the invitation should say, “Ahora Americano.”
The difference being, as I understand it, in Western society that kind of thing is the basis for the comedic situation the character finds himself in. If I’m getting what we’re being told in this thread, an East/Southeast Asian audience would watch that and go, “What, why do people find this funny? He’s just doing what anyone would do.”
Caveat: don’t watch the show, maybe that’s not how it was presented.
Time’s been brought up - I think it’s really interesting how different cultures perceive being on time and lateness.
In a place like Japan or Germany, you’d arrive for a business meeting a half hour early, just because even being a minute late would mean you’d have lost the business deal.
In South Asian, South American and Caribbean countries (something about the hot weather making people more relaxed? Now THAT would be an interesting study) there’s practically no perception of being on time or being late. In Brazil they’ve done surveys of how late you have to be for something until you’re officially considered “late”, and the responses were upwards of three hours. Imagine trying to plan an event where people are showing up three hours late without considering themselves late. No wonder Indian weddings have a spread-out, multi-day, show-up-when-you-can approach, there’d be no way to have a sit-down meal starting and ending at a certain time.
Our tour guide in Cairo told us “Cairo time” works the same way as all those tropical places you mention, mattomic. In fact at the end of our first day of sightseeing, she gave very explicit instructions to the driver she had hired for the next morning to show up at “9:00 a.m. not Cairo time”.
I don’t understand why some people do not understand that each language has its polite ways of saying things which might make no sense if literally translated into another language.
19th century English was very elaborate and some of it remains in India and makes people think it’s funny.
I beg to differ. Are you really begging?
Answering “I am afraid not” because plain “no” would seem rude. Do you have these shoes in my size? A curt NO would sound very rude so you say “I am afraid not”.
I am your most humble servant. No you are not. You are a liar.
Why do we say “Could I have some tea?” rather than “Gimme some tea!”. Of course you can have some tea. It’s right there. What a stupid question.
Why is it rude for a clerk in the store to ask a customer “what do you want?”. It sounds perfectly good in Spanish.
Languages are full of such things. It is just that if they are in your own language you are familiar with them and they seem normal.
It used to be considered rude in English to refer to a lady as “she” and children would be reprimanded when they did it with the phrase “she is the cat’s mother” so they would learn to use titles or names rather than pronouns.
It is just the culture and it changes continually.
The Chinese also have the custom that they never accept a gift the first time it is offered as that would appear to be greedy. So they reject it until the other person has insisted several times. Not knowing this, many years ago, I bought a present for a girl while I was in China but when I gave it to her she rejected it. I was taken aback and took it back. I bet she was totally confused that I just took it back. I had no idea I was supposed to insist.
Now I know I need to insist but I am often confused because it seems they are refusing it just a bit too much and I wonder if this time they really mean it. I have noticed that money should always go in an envelope. The few times I did not have an envelope handy and gave it openly in hand it was rejected forcefully. Last time it happened I was leaving in a hurry so I pulled out some old and torn envelope from something else, I put the money in there and then she took it.
When I travel in China I always ask about everything. You can’t go wrong asking. Should I pay now? Should I shake his hand? Let me know when we should motion to leave. I just follow the advice of the local people because otherwise you are lost.
In Spain I will arrive at a party 15 minutes after the hour I was invited and I find the hosts are not even ready and I have become a problem by arriving too early.
Ok, on the issue of time and punctuality, there is a different standard in S Asian societies for different situations. A business meeting at 2 PM means, 2 PM…sharp. A society lunch at 1 PM, means be there before 1 30, thats when we start eating.
I agree with some other posters that this is not a good example. I think even a Westerner may use “That would be very difficult” or something similar as a diplomatic way of saying “I don’t want to help you. Now piss off.”, and I think that even in a Western culture, it would be considered rude and pushy to keep asking in this scenario. Really, tactfulness is not exactly unknown in the West. Perhaps some Eastern cultures take it to a higher level, but some people make it sound like it is some kind of alien concept or something.
In my naughty schoolboy days we went through a phase where we would never ever admit to “throwing something at someone”. We did occasionally “drop things in someone’s direction” however.
Correct. The more informal the relationship, the looser the appointment. If you have an appointment with a Western-oriented, international company, that’s usually no problem. I always use Western-style hospitals that are very modern in their practices. But I have also used more Third World-ish hospitals and government agencies, and good luck getting anything done on time! And of course, making an appointment with a friend is always fraught with peril. The entrance to The Emporium shopping center from the Skytrain is a favorite meeting place, and I’ve often seen guys there fuming because their girlfriends haven’t shown up like they said they would.
Keeps life interesting over here.
I seem to recall just such a theory about the Mediterranean peoples. This may stretch all the way back to the Middle Ages, but I believe there was a common perception at one time that Italians and Greeks were lazy and indolent, due to the climate.
sailor, I agree that “face” is a near-universal concept, and manifests itself in many ways - international diplomacy being one of the most obvious, and nearly all corporate and governmental communications, particularly when something goes wrong. However, to us westerners it’s remarkable in east Asian culture, though, because it is so all-pervasive in day-to-day life, and so strongly felt, and avoidance of its loss is so important.
Few anecdotes, the first two I was present at: two Chinese guys in a bar in Singapore having an argument (in English) that led to a bit of pushing and shoving. One of them acknowledged the root of his issue, and said loudly to the other “Why you so like that? Give me some face, ah!?”
Second anecdote: in Wanchai, Hong Kong. An old dude pushing a fruit cart down a narrow street, going home from the market. Round the corner comes a truck. They end up face to face and stationary, but neither will back down. The truck won’t reverse up, and soon can’t reverse because of the traffic behind him, but the old man won’t move his cart onto the sidewalk (by this time the only practical solution to the issue) because he won’t concede space. It turns into an hour-long standoff with lots of swearing, and the blockage spills back onto the main highway and eventually causes gridlock through pretty much the entire half of the city, during rush hour. I left before I saw how it was resolved, but I’m guessing it would have been through the intervention of a third party that both guys could unite in being scornful about, probably a cop, thus relieving them of the problem of who lost face.
Third anecdote: Bus Uncle [NSFW Cantonese swearing and subtitles]. The young man made a complaint against the older guy’s cellphone use, apparently by tapping him on the shoulder. The older guy feels his “face” has been lost, and it is such an insult that he won’t back down. Not at all. Even when the young man explicity and repeatedly apologises: the older guy continues to raise the requirement for the apology to be acknowledged. (A similar thing happened to me on a tram, and ended up with me being whacked with a rolled-up newspaper by an elderly man.) However, the young man is also more subtly undermining the older guy’s “face” towards the end by picking up on the (relatively standard insult) “F*** your mother” insult and applying its meaning literally, and taking “offense” at that.
