# Chinese/Kanji character for tzu **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [May 10, 2005, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chinese-kanji-character-for-tzu/303171 "2005-05-10T03:41:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Greg\_Charles](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/839c29/32.png) [@Greg\_Charles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Greg_Charles)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2005, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chinese-kanji-character-for-tzu/303171/1 "2005-05-10T03:41:56Z")
I’m confused about the Chinese character 子 . (I hope that shows up.) I believe it’s written as zi3 in Pinyin, and it’s 0xD7D3 in Unicode. It’s “ko” in Japanese and tu (tử) in Vietnamese. I think this is the character added to the names of great men as Tzu or Tsu, right? E.g. Lao Tzu, Sun Tzu, and probably Confuscious as well, since he’s Khong Tu (Không Tử) in Vietnamese. However, this same character means child, and it’s mostly used for women’s names in Japanese, e.g. Kimiko, Sachiko. Why is that? Why does the same character mean both honored man and child? It also seems to mean fruit, but that’s probably a coincidence. ---
**Author:** ![Greg\_Charles](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/839c29/32.png) [@Greg\_Charles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Greg_Charles)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2005, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chinese-kanji-character-for-tzu/303171/2 "2005-05-10T03:45:09Z")
The Chinese showed up, but not the Vietnamese. Interesting. I guess they have a bigger lobby at Jelsoft. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2005, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chinese-kanji-character-for-tzu/303171/3 "2005-05-10T04:23:17Z")
IANANS\*, but the pinyin for that character is indeed “zi” [but generally without a tone]. It has no definite meaning; its something of an article added to words to distinguish them from others (it usually identifies nouns, but not always). It most certainly does not necessarily denote great men. The word “table,” for example, is “zhuo zi.” - I am not a native speaker. ---
**Author:** ![Excalibre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/898d66/32.png) [@Excalibre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Excalibre)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2005, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chinese-kanji-character-for-tzu/303171/4 "2005-05-10T04:48:22Z")
In Chinese, it’s used in a ton of words, and it appears to almost be some sort of derivational suffix or something, but I’m not sure what it signifies. Its function appears, to this naïve third year Chinese student, to be essentially grammatical, but I’m not sure exactly what that function is. ---
**Author:** ![RealTronic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9dc877/32.png) [@RealTronic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealTronic)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2005, 5:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chinese-kanji-character-for-tzu/303171/5 "2005-05-10T05:05:59Z")
The suffix 子 (pronounced zi mostly in Chinese I think) means teacher in this case I think. At least that’s what it said when I checked it on the Japanese Wikipedia > **[孔子](https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E5%AD%94%E5%AD%90)** > > 孔子（こうし、くじ、拼音: Kǒng zǐ 、朝: 공자〈gongja〉蔵: チベット文字：ཁུང་ཙི།; ワイリー方式：kong rtse；\[コンツェ\]、紀元前552年または紀元前551年 - 紀元前479年）は、春秋時代の中国の思想家、哲学者。儒家の始祖。氏は孔、諱は丘、字は仲尼（ちゅうじ）。孔子は尊称である。ヨーロッパではラテン語化された"Confucius"（孔夫子の音訳、夫子は先生への尊称）の名で知られている。読みの「こうし」は漢音、「くじ」は呉音。釈迦、キリスト、ソクラテスと並び四聖人（四聖）に数えられる。 > 有力な諸侯国が領域国家の形成へと向かい、人口の流動化と実力主義が横行して旧来の都市国家の氏族共同体を基礎とする身分制秩序が解体されつつあった周末、魯国に生まれ、周初への復古を理想として身分制秩序の再編と仁道政治を掲げた。孔子の弟子たちは孔子の思想を奉じて教団を作り、戦国時代、儒家となって諸子百家の一家をなした。孔子の死後約400年かけて孔子の教えをまとめ、弟子達が編纂したのが『論語』である。 > 約3000人の弟子がおり、特に「身の六芸に通じる者」として七十子がいた。そ... ---
**Author:** ![Greg\_Charles](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/839c29/32.png) [@Greg\_Charles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Greg_Charles)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2005, 8:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chinese-kanji-character-for-tzu/303171/6 "2005-05-10T08:44:12Z")
I’m not even a non-native speaker, but I’m pretty sure pinyin always includes the tone. Maybe you mean it should be the level tone. However, that would be written as zi1, and that’s not represented as 子 , at least not according to the dictionaries I can find. I can’t read that Japanese site, but “teacher” makes sense. Still the dictionary defintion shows a number of meanings, but not “teacher”. However, it also doesn’t show fruit, and I know I’ve seen that character used to distinguish, for example, a peach from a peach flower. I’ve heard it’s only used with native, as opposed to imported, fruits though. ---
**Author:** ![Mahaloth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mahaloth/32/1079_2.png) [@Mahaloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahaloth)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2005, 8:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chinese-kanji-character-for-tzu/303171/7 "2005-05-10T08:55:03Z")
Well, if there is no tone in the character(which i think is the case for 子), then no tone is marked. This is the fifth tone of Chinese, neutral. ---
**Author:** ![Stark\_Raven\_Mad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Stark\_Raven\_Mad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stark_Raven_Mad)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2005, 9:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chinese-kanji-character-for-tzu/303171/8 "2005-05-10T09:48:47Z")
The word can also mean seed. Zi, as attached to the name of Sun Tzu, Confucius, Lao-Tzu, simply means mister. Greatness is no criterion; it’s simply a sign of respect. ---
**Author:** ![China\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2005, 11:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chinese-kanji-character-for-tzu/303171/9 "2005-05-10T11:42:53Z")
Well, actually, in Mandarin Chinese “zi” has two pronunciations. First is third tone and primary meaning is “son”, followed by other secondary meanings like “seed.” Second pronunciation is fourth tone, where it is a noun and suffix. Examples would be house/fangzi 房子 or automobile/chezi 车子. It can be pronounced in the neutral tone, but this basic Chinese pronunciation guidelines (fourth tone following a third tone is generally neutral). All that said, Stark Raven Mad nailed it: it’s a type of honorific. ---
**Author:** ![Excalibre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/898d66/32.png) [@Excalibre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Excalibre)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2005, 12:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chinese-kanji-character-for-tzu/303171/10 "2005-05-10T12:13:55Z")
> [@China Guy](#): > > All that said, Stark Raven Mad nailed it: it’s a type of honorific. Then what’s its function in baozi? “Honorable dumpling”? Why is it part of about half the nouns in the language? ---
**Author:** ![China\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2005, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chinese-kanji-character-for-tzu/303171/11 "2005-05-10T12:48:33Z")
> [@Excalibre](#): > > Then what’s its function in baozi? “Honorable dumpling”? Why is it part of about half the nouns in the language? Keep in mind that this is a duoyinzi 多音字 or something that sounds the same but is a different character/meaning. Third tone and fourth tone - different word but same character. As I wrote earlier dumpling/baozi would be noun and suffix. The main reason it’s a suffix in so many cases is to di-syllablicize the word like baozi. BTW, di-syllabicize is a pretty Chinese language student specific terminology word (spell it correctly and use it on your chinese prof). Because Chinese is tonal, and so many single syllable words sound similar, Chinese put together two syllables to remove confusion as to the word in reference. For example, baozi is a dumpling, but if you said “bao” using the same character 包, then it could be a package or a dumpling. Whereas, baozi has to be dumpling. Another example would be “to walk” or zou 走. Spoken Mandarin you’ll generally hear “walk on the road” zoulu 走路. Zuo has a lot of similar words, whereas zoulu is very exact. I’m not a Chinese linguist, but possibly originated as body parts like nose/bizi鼻子. Over time extended the meaning to inanimate objects. In the case of Laozi and Kongzi, et al, it’s an honorific and not used to di-syllabacize the word. As a third year Chinese student, you should be getting into the absolutely maddening way that Chinese can be terribly inexact. Part of that whole low context cultural language thing that typifies Chinese. Get to China and travel around - and you’ll be astounded at the way Chinese actually speak. Wait until you go to Beijing to hear how the natives really speak “textbook” Mandarin. bwahahahahahaha ---
**Author:** ![Shalmanese](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/45deac/32.png) [@Shalmanese](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shalmanese)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2005, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chinese-kanji-character-for-tzu/303171/12 "2005-05-10T14:25:55Z")
So does that mean jiao zie means honorable foot? :? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2005, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chinese-kanji-character-for-tzu/303171/13 "2005-05-10T14:28:47Z")
Note that the Japanse and Korean version don’t neccessarily have much to do with the Chinese one anymore. It’s been way too long since it was introduced. ---
**Author:** ![Bambi\_Hassenpfeffer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Bambi\_Hassenpfeffer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bambi_Hassenpfeffer)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2005, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chinese-kanji-character-for-tzu/303171/14 "2005-05-10T17:44:55Z")
> [@Greg Charles](#): > > The Chinese showed up, but not the Vietnamese. Interesting. I guess they have a bigger lobby at Jelsoft. No, it’s because the closing ; got combined with your ) to make 😉 . You either have to put a space or disable the smilies in your input. tử is the character you wanted. \ ---
**Author:** ![Greg\_Charles](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/839c29/32.png) [@Greg\_Charles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Greg_Charles)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2005, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chinese-kanji-character-for-tzu/303171/15 "2005-05-11T03:38:57Z")
Well, that’s a bit better, but it still doesn’t show up for me. I see the t, but the next letter, which should be a u, with a little hook on it and a question mark above, just appears as a square. Can anyone else see it? Interesting. What you call the Chinese neutral tone sounds to me like the Vietnamese sixth tone, usually translated as “low glottal stop”. To me, the Chinese first tone sounds more neutral. Why does this “bonus” tone in Chinese get described that way? ---
**Author:** ![Bambi\_Hassenpfeffer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Bambi\_Hassenpfeffer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bambi_Hassenpfeffer)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2005, 5:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chinese-kanji-character-for-tzu/303171/16 "2005-05-11T05:43:03Z")
Make sure you have the correct language packs installed. Tell me what OS you’re using, and I can help you figure it out. I have XP, and for me it’s a matter of checking a couple options in the Regional and Language control panel. ---
**Author:** ![Greg\_Charles](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/839c29/32.png) [@Greg\_Charles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Greg_Charles)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2005, 7:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chinese-kanji-character-for-tzu/303171/17 "2005-05-11T07:40:22Z")
No, it’s not a big deal. Vietnamese works for me on every site but here. I’m glad to know other people can see though. I’m using Windows 2000 at work, but I have XP at home, so maybe I’ll take a look tonight. ---
**Author:** ![Excalibre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/898d66/32.png) [@Excalibre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Excalibre)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2005, 8:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chinese-kanji-character-for-tzu/303171/18 "2005-05-11T08:04:30Z")
> [@Greg Charles](#): > > Well, that’s a bit better, but it still doesn’t show up for me. I see the t, but the next letter, which should be a u, with a little hook on it and a question mark above, just appears as a square. Can anyone else see it? > > Interesting. What you call the Chinese neutral tone sounds to me like the Vietnamese sixth tone, usually translated as “low glottal stop”. To me, the Chinese first tone sounds more neutral. Why does this “bonus” tone in Chinese get described that way? I see it just fine, Win98se and Firefox. The “neutral” tone is also described as the lack of a tone - it’s a way of describing what seem to me at least phonetically equivalent to unstressed syllables in English. Rather than the noticeably high first tone, it’s pronounced in the center of the speaking range, and syllables in the neutral tone are shorter, even elided in fast speech. With some Chinese speakers I’ve heard, the third tone dips low enough that there’s some creaky voice sometimes, but this tone has a definite contour: falling and then rising. ---
**Author:** ![Bambi\_Hassenpfeffer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Bambi\_Hassenpfeffer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bambi_Hassenpfeffer)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2005, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chinese-kanji-character-for-tzu/303171/19 "2005-05-11T13:44:23Z")
> [@Greg Charles](#): > > No, it’s not a big deal. Vietnamese works for me on every site but here. I’m glad to know other people can see though. I’m using Windows 2000 at work, but I have XP at home, so maybe I’ll take a look tonight. Just FYI, it only shows up for me when I use Firefox. In IE, it’s just a square for me too, even if I set the encoding to Vietnamese.