# Chinese origin of 'Lathe of Heaven'
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chinese-origin-of-lathe-of-heaven/409328
**Category:** Factual Questions
**Created:** [June 25, 2007, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chinese-origin-of-lathe-of-heaven/409328 "2007-06-25T15:33:03Z")
**Posts on this page:** 12
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Earl_Snake-Hips_Tucker)
#### Post date: [June 25, 2007, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chinese-origin-of-lathe-of-heaven/409328/1 "2007-06-25T15:33:03Z")
I saw an interview with Ursula K. Leguin some years ago, and she mentioned the English translation of the Chinese quotation from which she took the title for her book [Lathe of Heaven](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Lathe_of_Heaven), the interview being done during the time of the remake of the new and re-release of the old movies. She made a passing comment that after writing the book, she found that the translation of the quote was actually pretty inaccurate, but didn’t elaborate.
Anyone out there can do any better? I don’t have access to the Chinese source, so I can’t post what it looks like.
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### Author:  [@Autolycus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Autolycus)
#### Post date: [June 25, 2007, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chinese-origin-of-lathe-of-heaven/409328/2 "2007-06-25T20:19:58Z")
I cant help you, but I will bump this post for you out of curiosity for an answer ^^
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### Author:  [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)
#### Post date: [June 25, 2007, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chinese-origin-of-lathe-of-heaven/409328/3 "2007-06-25T20:40:02Z")
The original phrase is “_tian jun_.” I don’t think \*tianjun \*is used in modern chinese. \*Tian \*means sky or heaven. \*Jun \*means even, fair, or equal.
So, heavenly equalizer or some such. Lathe sounds good to me if you’re going to translate metaphorically.
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### Author:  [@Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Earl_Snake-Hips_Tucker)
#### Post date: [June 26, 2007, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chinese-origin-of-lathe-of-heaven/409328/4 "2007-06-26T00:21:19Z")
Cool! Thanks!
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### Author:  [@jovan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jovan)
#### Post date: [June 26, 2007, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chinese-origin-of-lathe-of-heaven/409328/5 "2007-06-26T01:24:26Z")
[QUOTE=Richard Parker]
So, heavenly equalizer or some such. Lathe sounds good to me if you’re going to translate metaphorically.
[/QUOTE]
I think that’s a bit off. The expression comes from the works of Taoist philosopher Chuang Tzu. The specific passage that Leguin is supposed to have taken it from is this:
> [@](#):
>
> He whose mind is thus grandly fixed emits a Heavenly light. In him who emits this heavenly light men see the (True) man. When a man has cultivated himself (up to this point), thenceforth he remains constant in himself. When he is thus constant in himself, (what is merely) the human element will leave him, but Heaven will help him. Those whom their human element has left we call the people of Heaven. Those whom Heaven helps we call the Sons of Heaven. Those who would by learning attain to this seek for what they cannot learn. Those who would by effort attain to this, attempt what effort can never effect. Those who aim by reasoning to reach it reason where reasoning has no place. To know to stop where they cannot arrive by means of knowledge is the highest attainment. Those who cannot do this will be destroyed on the lathe of Heaven.
It’s true that the last sentence isn’t particularly well translated. The original is:
> [@](#):
>
> 若有不即是者，天鈞敗之。
I think “lose to the heavenly scales” is closer. In Chuang Tzu’s philosophy, balance is of prime importance, and it is symbolized by a great heavenly scale, which is what he’s talking about here. It’s not an “equalizer” but rather something something with which your soul is weighted, with the goal of achieving balance between all things. If you do not follow the path laid out in the book, the heavenly scale will be out of balance.
English translation:
> **[The Writings of Chuang Tzu :: Book 13](http://nothingistic.org/library/chuangtzu/chuang35.html)**
Chinese original:
[http://www.ltivs.ilc.edu.tw/library/elecbooks/books/chuang/out/c23.htm](http://www.ltivs.ilc.edu.tw/library/elecbooks/books/chuang/out/c23.htm)
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### Author:  [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)
#### Post date: [June 26, 2007, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chinese-origin-of-lathe-of-heaven/409328/6 "2007-06-26T02:21:31Z")
Heavenly harmonizer, perhaps (with extra points for alliteration).
The English translation you link to has it as “lathe” as well, I see. Is that how the phrase is conventionally translated?
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### Author:  [@jovan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jovan)
#### Post date: [June 26, 2007, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chinese-origin-of-lathe-of-heaven/409328/7 "2007-06-26T02:56:50Z")
[QUOTE=Richard Parker]
Heavenly harmonizer, perhaps (with extra points for alliteration).
[/quote]
“Harmonizer” suggests that it’s something that brings balance. It doesn’t, it _measures_ balance. It’s like the scales of justice, or those used to judge who will enter heaven in Christianity. You can also see it as the universe’s balance itself, but I do not think it is to be seen as something that “harmonizes” or _gives_ balance.
> [@](#):
>
> The English translation you link to has it as “lathe” as well, I see. Is that how the phrase is conventionally translated?
I don’t know.
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### Author:  [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)
#### Post date: [June 26, 2007, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chinese-origin-of-lathe-of-heaven/409328/8 "2007-06-26T03:19:01Z")
[QUOTE=jovan]
“Harmonizer” suggests that it’s something that brings balance. It doesn’t, it _measures_ balance. It’s like the scales of justice, or those used to judge who will enter heaven in Christianity. You can also see it as the universe’s balance itself, but I do not think it is to be seen as something that “harmonizes” or _gives_ balance.
[/QUOTE]
It isn’t clear to me what you’re basing your argument on. Do you have a textual defense for your claim? In [this translation](http://chinese.dsturgeon.net/text.pl?node=2957&if=en) of the Zhuangzi, it speaks of the heavenly element, which it equates to the lathe of heaven, as harmonizing.
Are you just arguing from general Chinese metaphysical principles?
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### Author:  [@jovan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jovan)
#### Post date: [June 26, 2007, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chinese-origin-of-lathe-of-heaven/409328/9 "2007-06-26T04:29:58Z")
From the Chinese text project:
是以聖人和之以是非，而休乎天鈞，是之謂兩行。
_Therefore the sagely man brings together a dispute in its affirmations and denials, and rests in the equal fashioning of Heaven. Both sides of the question are admissible._
[Lin Yutang](http://www.religiousworlds.com/taoism/cz-text2.html) translates the passage above as:
_Wherefore the true Sage brings all the contraries together and rests in the natural Balance of Heaven. This is called (the principle of following) two courses (at once)._
The word “鈞” was a measure of weight until the Ming era and is thus associated with scales.
The original Chinese text you linked to doesn’t include “天鈞”. “_Tempered and harmonised by the Heavenly element in our nature_” corresponds to:
和以天倪
In this case, the important concept is “天倪” (_tian-ni_). Here’s what a [Taiwanese researcher](http://www.taiwanclassic.com/Teps/ec/ecjnlarticleView.aspx?jnlcattype=1&jnlptype=1&jnltype=462&jnliid=586&issueiid=22514&atliid=262829) has to say about the concepts of _tian-jun_ and _tian-ni_:
> [@](#):
>
> 1. Tian-Nĺ is a natural borderline. Different from the discrimination in common sense, this borderline blurs discrimination into mixture. 2. Tian-Jun is an equal natural principle, which differs from the generally sensed equality. While the equality in general sense is contrary to inequality, Tian-Jun transcends this relativity: sameness being the same and diversity being the same, too.
What’s very difficult when translating classical Chinese texts, especially philosophical ones, is that very often the important concepts have no equivalent in English. Translators often seem to not agree on term, which complicates things greatly for English readers.
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### Author:  [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)
#### Post date: [June 26, 2007, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chinese-origin-of-lathe-of-heaven/409328/10 "2007-06-26T04:37:04Z")
[QUOTE=jovan]
The original Chinese text you linked to doesn’t include “天鈞”.
[/quote]
Yes, it does. At the end of the second paragraph, it quotes, “天均者，天倪也.”
But thanks for the further info, I’ll browse it.
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### Author:  [@jovan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jovan)
#### Post date: [June 26, 2007, 6:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chinese-origin-of-lathe-of-heaven/409328/11 "2007-06-26T06:53:56Z")
By the way, if you can read Chinese, the full article I linked to can be read here:
[http://www.lib.ndhu.edu.tw/libhtml/series/200608/8-027-054.pdf](http://www.lib.ndhu.edu.tw/libhtml/series/200608/8-027-054.pdf)
In it, the author discusses what the origin of the expression _tian-jun_ might be. One of the possible meanings of the _jun_ character is “potter’s wheel”. This is where the English translators got “lathe”. However, the author states that this is one of several hypotheses.
The first meaning of 鈞 was a unit of measure. From there, it came to mean “average” and “equivalent” and later “to measure”. I couldn’t find where the “potter’s wheel” meaning came from, but I find that the use of “lathe” in English distracts from the more contextually accurate notion of “balance” and “equilibrium”, even though “lathe” _might_ be somewhat etymologically correct.
Incidently, if you switch the two characters around, you get: 鈞天, which is one of the nine heavens, more specifically, the middle heaven.
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### Author:  [@deepstream](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/deepstream)
#### Post date: [October 1, 2010, 10:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chinese-origin-of-lathe-of-heaven/409328/12 "2010-10-01T10:26:33Z")
> [@jovan](#):
>
> English translation:
> [The Writings of Chuang Tzu :: Book 13](http://nothingistic.org/library/chuangtzu/chuang35.html)
The link isn’t pointing at the passage in question, which is here:
> **[The Writings of Chuang Tzu :: Book 23 (cont.)](http://nothingistic.org/library/chuangtzu/chuang67.html)**
Ironically, the English text this source provides is precisely the translation that Jovan is saying is wrong… ?