# Chinese restaurant called out for 'problematic' concept **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [February 13, 2023, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chinese-restaurant-called-out-for-problematic-concept/979740 "2023-02-13T22:07:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Isamu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/7c8e57/32.png) [@Isamu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isamu)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2023, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chinese-restaurant-called-out-for-problematic-concept/979740/61 "2023-02-15T03:11:34Z")
I mean, if you’re happy with Vietnamese people owning a Chinese food restaurant that has a Chinese style name, but you’re unhappy about a Caucasian person doing the same, then you are the racist. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Crap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.crap/32/3131_2.png) [@Dr.Crap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Crap)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2023, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chinese-restaurant-called-out-for-problematic-concept/979740/62 "2023-02-15T03:17:13Z")
I understand. My issue is assuming the least charitable interpretation of a marketing buzzword intended to veil a universal motive. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2023, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chinese-restaurant-called-out-for-problematic-concept/979740/63 "2023-02-15T03:24:43Z")
> [@Dr.Crap](#): > > Why be so irritated by _elevated_? It’s a euphemism for ‘expensive’. It’s marketing bullshit. I think you answered your own question here. It’s the same reason I get irritated by someone trying to sell me a pre-owned automobile instead of a used automobile. ---
**Author:** ![DesertDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desertdog/32/11503_2.png) [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2023, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chinese-restaurant-called-out-for-problematic-concept/979740/64 "2023-02-15T05:06:17Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > And when you go in, the people front of house often aren’t the same ethnicity as the restaurant (the chefs may be, but often you don’t get to see them). No-one cares. Cooks can do anything. Here in Arizona, except for ethnic restaurants where the staff is entirely family, about 80% of the back-end is Hispanic. ---
**Author:** ![DesertDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desertdog/32/11503_2.png) [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2023, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chinese-restaurant-called-out-for-problematic-concept/979740/65 "2023-02-15T05:27:00Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > > [@sachertorte](#): > > > > Kind of like how you can describe objects as Oriental, but not people. > > You can’t? That’s new… I guess? I mean I know as a noun, but as a descriptive adjective? I was called on it – by an Asian – fifty years ago. The objection is that the [etymology of ‘orient’](https://www.etymonline.com/word/oriental) is ‘east.’ On a globe, east of what? Why, the center of the civilized world of course – Europe. Looking it up, ‘Asia’ derives from [‘sunrise’](https://www.etymonline.com/search?q=asia&ref=searchbar_searchhint) but at least it’s more obscure, to say nothing of not being used by Victorian-era colonizers. ---
**Author:** ![zweisamkeit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zweisamkeit/32/4360_2.png) [@zweisamkeit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zweisamkeit)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2023, 12:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chinese-restaurant-called-out-for-problematic-concept/979740/66 "2023-02-15T12:06:21Z")
I work in a historic house not-museum\* and there’s even a slow shift away from “oriental” for rugs and carpets and towards “figured” (since they have designs built into the weaving or knotting). Part of the reason is exactly what you mentioned - east of _what_ on a round globe? It assumes Europe is the default or center of the world. However, another reason is that there are many figured rugs that _are not Asian_, such as Moroccan rugs, Navajo rugs, contemporary art rugs, etc. Figured rug is a broader umbrella term that helps reduce inaccuracy.\*\* This is also a good reason to use if someone bristles at the “wokeness” or “PC gone amok” of the first reason. \* Technically not a museum, but we give tours and have historic objects, etc. \*\* We make a distinction between figured and non-figured rugs because there are differences in how you clean and maintain the two types. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2023, 12:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chinese-restaurant-called-out-for-problematic-concept/979740/67 "2023-02-15T12:23:08Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > You can’t? That’s new… I guess? I mean I know as a noun, but as a descriptive adjective? I tend to be pretty clueless about current trends, but even I was called out on this some 15 years ago, and it is common understanding around here. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2023, 12:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chinese-restaurant-called-out-for-problematic-concept/979740/68 "2023-02-15T12:25:00Z")
> [@zweisamkeit](#): > > Part of the reason is exactly what you mentioned - east of _what_ on a round globe? It assumes Europe is the default or center of the world. I’m not saying that you’re wrong for dropping the word “oriental”, but I’m not sure this logic holds up. I mean, I might describe myself as a “Westerner”. Perhaps we’re all assuming Turkmenistan is the default or center of the world 😄 Also, FYI, the Chinese word for oriental: 东方 _dongfang_, is still used for lots of things in China, including new buildings. I think it’s often a mistake to try to logically explain why a word is offensive in terms of its etymology. Because normally it’s simply whether a word has been commonly used as a pejorative and/or whether it is associated with a unpleasant period of history. _Oriental_ has that history, _dongfang_ does not. ---
**Author:** ![sachertorte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sachertorte/32/3727_2.png) [@sachertorte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sachertorte)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2023, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chinese-restaurant-called-out-for-problematic-concept/979740/69 "2023-02-15T14:06:11Z")
Saying that a phrasing isn’t problematic because it _could_ be used fairly misses the point entirely. I agree that if problematic words were not used in a problematic way, they would not be problematic. But that isn’t really saying much is it? > [@Max\_S](#): > > I mean, you could say a Chinese chef elevates Cantonese cuisine [to a new level of tastiness, never before seen!]. I see it as a synonym for refined, no baggage at all from racist imperialistic notions of ‘elevating’ savage cultures to civilized standards. Who does this? To me, this is a made up example that doesn’t make any sense. I’m not going to pretend to know all uses of ‘elevated’ with regard to cuisine, but seriously, who speaks like that? If someone makes kick-ass Ma-po Tofu that is super tasty, it would be described as kick-ass and super tasty. I don’t see how "elevated’ enters the picture at all. “Wow, this Ma-Po Tofu is really elevated!” No. “Elevated,” to my knowledge, is used when the dish _departs from the traditional_. Tastiness isn’t really part of the equation. And again, one doesn’t elevate an entire cuisine. An individual dish perhaps, but saying someone (of any race) elevates an entire cuisine is cringey. I’ll also point out that “elevated,” at least to my knowledge, is used to describe introducing something European to Asian cooking. But when the opposite happens, and Asian influences are put into a European dish, it’s called “fusion” or an “Asian twist.” Why not “elevate” there? If stuffing a croissant with char-siu were described as “Elevating the humble Croissant” was a common thing that happened, I probably wouldn’t poke at elevated as much. But I really don’t think that sort of thing happens. As for “Oriental,” others have already addressed the history and at least decades long view. I will say that I view “Oriental” more in line with “Colored.” It certainly isn’t to the same level as you-know-what. ---
**Author:** ![Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eyebrows_0f_doom/32/3119_2.png) [@Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eyebrows_0f_Doom)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2023, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chinese-restaurant-called-out-for-problematic-concept/979740/70 "2023-02-15T14:51:15Z")
> [@sachertorte](#): > > If stuffing a croissant with char-siu were described as “Elevating the humble Croissant” was a common thing that happened, But it does. All the time. If you watch any kind of cooking shows you’ll see this term used constantly. I remember Top Chef episodes where the challenges were to “elevate the common hamburger” or “elevate breakfast foods like eggs, pancakes and cereal.” ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2023, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chinese-restaurant-called-out-for-problematic-concept/979740/71 "2023-02-15T15:02:59Z")
I’d see elevated as relating to haute cuisine, expressing the idea of it being food that is carefully and elaborately prepared, in contrast to everyday cooking. It’s not so much making the cuisine better as it is approaching the cuisine from a different angle, one where presentation and artistry is valued. Where non-standard ingredients are employed to make the dish different, but still excellent. ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Krupe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ebca7d/32.png) [@Leo\_Krupe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Krupe)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2023, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chinese-restaurant-called-out-for-problematic-concept/979740/72 "2023-02-15T15:07:16Z")
Just as a point of explanation, this is why I hadn’t heard “elevating” in this context. I don’t watch cooking (competition) shows. I do watch public TV cooking shows (America’s Test Kitchen, Steven Raichlen, etc.), and they’ll update recipes, or make their own versions, but I’ve never heard of them “elevating” a dish. And, as another point, within 10 miles of my house, there are many Chinese restaurants, usually run (or at least staffed) by Asians. But that’s not my point. My point with this is the food is all the same – the menus are the same, the sweet and sour sauce is all the same sugary orange glop; it’s as if every single restaurant buys their food from one source. So in that sense, I wouldn’t mind a little “elevating”. ---
**Author:** ![sachertorte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sachertorte/32/3727_2.png) [@sachertorte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sachertorte)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2023, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chinese-restaurant-called-out-for-problematic-concept/979740/73 "2023-02-15T15:16:13Z")
> [@Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](#): > > But it does. All the time. If you watch any kind of cooking shows you’ll see this term used constantly. I remember Top Chef episodes where the challenges were to “elevate the common hamburger” or “elevate breakfast foods like eggs, pancakes and cereal.” Dish versus cuisine. I think that point has been made before. The point I’m trying to make is that in food writing, “elevated” refers to European techniques on non\_European cuisine, but they don’t refer to Asian influences on European cuisine the same way. I celebrate the chefs on Top Chef who take the _Assignment_ to ‘elevate’ by injecting Asian techniques into a European dish, but that’s quite a different thing isn’t it? Show me an example of a food writer describing the incorporation of Asian influences on European cuisine as ‘elevated.’ That’s where the problem comes from: the notion that you can elevate non-European cuisines, but Europe, being the pinnacle, can’t be elevated; it’s presumed to be already at the top. ---
**Author:** ![DesertDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desertdog/32/11503_2.png) [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2023, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chinese-restaurant-called-out-for-problematic-concept/979740/74 "2023-02-15T15:16:38Z")
> [@sachertorte](#): > > I view “Oriental” more in line with “Colored.” It certainly isn’t to the same level as you-know-what. That would be “yellow.” ---
**Author:** ![sachertorte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sachertorte/32/3727_2.png) [@sachertorte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sachertorte)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2023, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chinese-restaurant-called-out-for-problematic-concept/979740/75 "2023-02-15T15:26:30Z")
> [@Leo\_Krupe](#): > > And, as another point, within 10 miles of my house, there are many Chinese restaurants, usually run (or at least staffed) by Asians. But that’s not my point. My point with this is the food is all the same – the menus are the same, the sweet and sour sauce is all the same sugary orange glop; it’s as if every single restaurant buys their food from one source. So in that sense, I wouldn’t mind a little “elevating”. If you were unfortunate enough to only be surrounded by McDonalds, would you say an Applebees is elevating the hamburger? The sugary orange glop is Chinese-American cuisine, not Chinese\* Cuisine. The sugary glop is what sells to Americans, or at least did for a long time. \*I don’t want to get into a debate as to what counts as Chinese-ness. To keep things simple I’ll make the distinction while also noting that Chinese-American Cuisine is a valid Chinese Cuisine too. ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Krupe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ebca7d/32.png) [@Leo\_Krupe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Krupe)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2023, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chinese-restaurant-called-out-for-problematic-concept/979740/76 "2023-02-15T15:36:12Z")
@sachertorte I probably wouldn’t use the specific word “elevate,” but as far as the idea, I’d say yes. That’s because I’d compare Applebee’s to McDonald’s not just on the hamburger itself, but everything (atmosphere, decor, pricing, menu options, etc). Just as I do with one particular Chinese restaurant in my area. It’s a sit-down place, with tablecloths and servers. 95% of the other places have tables, but are primarily take out. The other 5% (or less) are buffets. So, in my area, there’s one, or at least very few, “elevated” Chinese places (akin to Applebee’s in this discussion), and the vast majority are McDonald’s. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2023, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chinese-restaurant-called-out-for-problematic-concept/979740/77 "2023-02-15T15:37:19Z")
I have a friend who is a Chinese American, whose mother was born is China. She says her mother adores a tacky Chinese American buffet place that is all overly sweet glop, and as a result, she eats there often when she visits her mom. So, valid cuisine, i guess. Also, i agree with Miller that the name is slightly uncomfortable because it feels slightly like yellowface, but it’s not an intrinsically terrible name, and if the place was convenient and had food i liked, I’d probably get their food from time to time. ---
**Author:** ![Bootb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e19b73/32.png) [@Bootb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bootb)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2023, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chinese-restaurant-called-out-for-problematic-concept/979740/78 "2023-02-15T15:40:52Z")
> [@zweisamkeit](#): > > I work in a historic house not-museum\* and there’s even a slow shift away from “oriental” for rugs and carpets and towards “figured” (since they have designs built into the weaving or knotting). Part of the reason is exactly what you mentioned - east of _what_ on a round globe? It assumes Europe is the default or center of the world. > > However, another reason is that there are many figured rugs that _are not Asian_, such as Moroccan rugs, Navajo rugs, contemporary art rugs, etc. Figured rug is a broader umbrella term that helps reduce inaccuracy.\*\* This is also a good reason to use if someone bristles at the “wokeness” or “PC gone amok” of the first reason. > > - Technically not a museum, but we give tours and have historic objects, etc. > \*\* We make a distinction between figured and non-figured rugs because there are differences in how you clean and maintain the two types. I can see that somebody might reduce the distinction to “figured and non-figured” for purposes of maintenance, etc. That makes sense from a technical standpoint. But in terms of marketing, public presentation, etc. it makes much more sense to say something like, “We have Oriental rugs, Moroccan rugs, and Navaho rugs.” That way you preserve the historical and cultural differences between the various types. To smush all those together into a single category does a grave disservice to the separate cultures that produced the rugs. ---
**Author:** ![snowthx](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowthx/32/10660_2.png) [@snowthx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snowthx)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2023, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chinese-restaurant-called-out-for-problematic-concept/979740/79 "2023-02-15T16:19:59Z")
> [@Leo\_Krupe](#): > > I do watch public TV cooking shows (America’s Test Kitchen, Steven Raichlen, etc.), and they’ll update recipes, or make their own versions, but I’ve never heard of them “elevating” a dish. Uh-oh! If they are “updating” or “making their own versions” of any ethnic dishes, prepare for backlash! ---
**Author:** ![Chingon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chingon/32/17645_2.png) [@Chingon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chingon)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2023, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chinese-restaurant-called-out-for-problematic-concept/979740/80 "2023-02-15T16:25:57Z")
No, they’ll be just fine. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chinese-restaurant-called-out-for-problematic-concept/979740.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chinese-restaurant-called-out-for-problematic-concept/979740.md?page=5)