# Chinese Swimmer: Doping or Jealousy? **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [July 30, 2012, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chinese-swimmer-doping-or-jealousy/629868 "2012-07-30T16:55:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![PrettyVacant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/49beb7/32.png) [@PrettyVacant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PrettyVacant)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2012, 9:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chinese-swimmer-doping-or-jealousy/629868/21 "2012-07-31T09:13:59Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > No, she didn’t. > > What the article says is that she swam the last 50m faster than Lochte did. Her overall time was 23 seconds slower than lochte’s. But that’s impossible unless she was biding her time for the first 300/350. You don’t fall 23 secs behind and then swim faster than a man. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2012, 9:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chinese-swimmer-doping-or-jealousy/629868/22 "2012-07-31T09:48:09Z")
> [@PrettyVacant](#): > > But that’s impossible unless she was biding her time for the first 300/350. You don’t fall 23 secs behind and then swim faster than a man. So you’re suggesting she doped in between laps? Or that she took something right before all that and it had just kicked in on the final lap? (Sorry if I misunderstood–I haven’t seen any of this due to lack of TV). ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2012, 10:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chinese-swimmer-doping-or-jealousy/629868/23 "2012-07-31T10:18:59Z")
> [@PrettyVacant](#): > > But that’s impossible unless she was biding her time for the first 300/350. Or she’s just worse at butterfly, breaststroke and backstroke than she is at freestyle. ---
**Author:** ![flodnak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/838e76/32.png) [@flodnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flodnak)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2012, 10:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chinese-swimmer-doping-or-jealousy/629868/24 "2012-07-31T10:20:37Z")
> [@Jman](#): > > I’ve sort of had an eyebrow raised at the whole Chinese team’s performance in swimming this year. They’ve never been a swimming power, and now this year, they are winning medals left and right. Something smells a little off. It’s quite possible they just got a generation that increased the talent pool over the last 4-8 years, but it is a little odd that they are suddenly a dominant force. > > I did read an article that China has begun throwing serious money at the swimming program to improve training, life conditions, etc for their swimmers, so it may all be on the up and up, but it is a bit odd. Money helps a LOT, in a sport like swimming. Many of the top swimmers, regardless of where they come from, train in Australia or the US, because those countries have the best facilities. Spending weeks or months training in a foreign country takes serious money. The Norwegian national swim team got a huge boost because of the sponsorship money and increased government money owing to Alexander Dale Oen showing that it was possible for someone from a little country to do well in that big sport. (I hope it won’t all dry up now that he left us so very young :() The other swimmers on the team also improved with the opportunity to spend more time training and to travel to the States for intensive training. And that’s a little country of five million. China is freaking huge. They’ve got an enormous talent pool to draw from, even if their budget per swimmer is probably smaller. I don’t know if Ye is clean or not, but it’s not immediately obvious to me that more money and better training can’t explain her improvement. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2012, 10:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chinese-swimmer-doping-or-jealousy/629868/25 "2012-07-31T10:32:12Z")
> [@PrettyVacant](#): > > But that’s impossible unless she was biding her time for the first 300/350. You don’t fall 23 secs behind and then swim faster than a man. Well, it’s apparently not impossible, because she did it. Do you have evidence that it didn’t happen in the manner described by the news article? ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2012, 10:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chinese-swimmer-doping-or-jealousy/629868/26 "2012-07-31T10:39:17Z")
> [@Namkcalb](#): > > In order to judge this fairly, we should look at footage of her former personal best. If there’s no apparent difference in technique, then it’s alright to suspect doping What an incredibly silly suggestion. Are you a professional swimming coach? If not, do you really think that a bunch of rank amateurs could make any meaningful assessment about her technique based on some TV footage? Changes in swimming technique, especially at the world-class level, often come down to almost imperceptibly small adjustments in things like hand position, leg kick, body roll, and head position. Much of this stuff would be hard to see even if you had underwater shots played in slow motion; there’s no way you could make much of a meaningful analysis just by watching the regular footage. ---
**Author:** ![PrettyVacant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/49beb7/32.png) [@PrettyVacant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PrettyVacant)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2012, 11:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chinese-swimmer-doping-or-jealousy/629868/27 "2012-07-31T11:38:00Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > Or she’s just worse at butterfly, breaststroke and backstroke than she is at freestyle. You’re not understanding the issue. Digest the observations of the IOC Medical Chief and the executive director of the World Swimming Coaches Association. ---
**Author:** ![hogarth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hogarth/32/1773_2.png) [@hogarth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hogarth)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2012, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chinese-swimmer-doping-or-jealousy/629868/28 "2012-07-31T13:31:37Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > So you’re suggesting she doped in between laps? Or that she took something right before all that and it had just kicked in on the final lap? > > (Sorry if I misunderstood–I haven’t seen any of this due to lack of TV). I think the suggestion is that she was sandbagging for the first 3/4 of the race in order to not look suspicious, but then blew it by not sandbagging enough on the last 1/4. ---
**Author:** ![Alka\_Seltzer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c89c15/32.png) [@Alka\_Seltzer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alka_Seltzer)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2012, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chinese-swimmer-doping-or-jealousy/629868/29 "2012-07-31T14:12:57Z")
Pretty sensible article [here](http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-19061026) on the BBC News website. It’s not unheard of for teenagers to knock seconds off their PBs in fairly short periods of time, they are still growing and developing. It’s much more suspicious when an older athlete suddenly makes a huge improvement. China has a huge population, so it’s entirely possible they have simply un-earthed a special talent. Their overall performance isn’t amazing when population and investment is taken into account, New Zealand wins far more medals per-capita. Innocent until proven guilty. The science of drugs testing has vastly improved since the 80s, but sadly we can’t be sure how widespread doping is among current competitors. That’s the real legacy of doping, the element of doubt de-values the whole event. ---
**Author:** ![Edward\_The\_Head](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ce73a5/32.png) [@Edward\_The\_Head](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Edward_The_Head)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2012, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chinese-swimmer-doping-or-jealousy/629868/30 "2012-07-31T14:53:28Z")
Lochte shut it down the last 50 when he knew he was going to win. He’s got a lot of races so there was no reason to go all out. Teenagers can drop lots of time, especially if they have tapered for it properly. Just look at the girl who won the 100 breast, they said she dropped 2-3 seconds off of her personal best, and that’s in a 100. From what I understand the swimmers are tested all the time, and at really random times as well. I don’t think she cheated, I think she had a lot of energy left over and went for it. There have been some records broken in the last few days, why are we not talking about them as well? ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2012, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chinese-swimmer-doping-or-jealousy/629868/31 "2012-07-31T14:53:32Z")
> [@hogarth](#): > > I think the suggestion is that she was sandbagging for the first 3/4 of the race in order to not look suspicious, but then blew it by not sandbagging enough on the last 1/4. **Runner Pat’s** linked article addresses the issue of “pacing” in swimming. The author apparently wrote his PhD on it, so apparently its not unusual for a swimmer to have “reserves” left at the final leg of a swim. She might be doping, but until there’s more evidence that’s the case, I tend to think her rapid improvement is just due to being young. ---
**Author:** ![hogarth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hogarth/32/1773_2.png) [@hogarth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hogarth)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2012, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chinese-swimmer-doping-or-jealousy/629868/32 "2012-07-31T15:08:30Z")
> [@Simplicio](#): > > **Runner Pat’s** linked article addresses the issue of “pacing” in swimming. The author apparently wrote his PhD on it, so apparently its not unusual for a swimmer to have “reserves” left at the final leg of a swim. I think you read the article backwards – he states that it’s extremely unusual (i.e. unheard of) for a swimmer to have that much reserve energy left at the end of the freestyle. ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2012, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chinese-swimmer-doping-or-jealousy/629868/33 "2012-07-31T15:21:17Z")
> [@hogarth](#): > > I think you read the article backwards – he states that it’s extremely unusual (i.e. unheard of) for a swimmer to have that much reserve energy left at the end of the freestyle. He says its unusual _for a sixteen year-old_. Maybe I missed it, but I don’t see anywhere where he said it was “extremely unusual” in general. ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2012, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chinese-swimmer-doping-or-jealousy/629868/34 "2012-07-31T15:38:29Z")
RickJay: > [@](#): > > No East German medal ever won should be considered valid. Even Katarina Witt’s? ---
**Author:** ![Enderw24](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ba9def/32.png) [@Enderw24](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enderw24)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2012, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chinese-swimmer-doping-or-jealousy/629868/35 "2012-07-31T16:14:47Z")
Is there any video of this anywhere? ---
**Author:** ![hogarth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hogarth/32/1773_2.png) [@hogarth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hogarth)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2012, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chinese-swimmer-doping-or-jealousy/629868/36 "2012-07-31T17:21:17Z")
> [@Simplicio](#): > > He says its unusual _for a sixteen year-old_. Maybe I missed it, but I don’t see anywhere where he said it was “extremely unusual” in general. Here’s what the article says: > [@](#): > > [..] For men, the best swimmers typically close in 57 to 59 seconds (check splits from London). This is about 19 to 23% SLOWER than the best men finish in an isolated 100m freestyle. [..] > > For women, the TYPICAL (excluding Shiwen) final 100m freestyle takes 61 to 64 seconds. This is 18 to 22% slower than the best females swim 100m freestyle. > > [Shiwen] does a 58.68 s final leg, which is only about 10% off the best 100m freestyle swimmers. The conclusion that I would draw from this is that her 100m freestyle leg is **disproportionately fast** not only by comparison to Lochte, but also to her peers, and to the best 100m freestyle swimmers. > > [..]Now, at this point, many will say “maybe it’s just her way to finish fast”, and that may be true. You’ll find examples of athletes who just had more at the end, and of course you get ranges. But the range is 18-23% off the isolated performance, not 10%. **That’s too big, and it’s not the optimal way, based on everything we know about performance and pacing.** (Emphasis mine.) ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2012, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chinese-swimmer-doping-or-jealousy/629868/37 "2012-07-31T17:34:36Z")
“Not optimal” != “extremely unusual.” ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2012, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chinese-swimmer-doping-or-jealousy/629868/38 "2012-07-31T17:50:31Z")
Money does help a lot, but sometimes it’s just talent. Take Missy Franklin. She trains here in Denver with the same coach she’s had since she was 7. Her family won’t move. (She also finished fast in her gold race yesterday.) But…China does have a government-sponsored sports program. Teachers are trained to spot potential athletes. They have over 3,500 training centers in the country. So maybe Ye flubbed in her previous races, maybe she’s stronger at freestyle, whatever. I don’t know enough of her history to judge. Swimmers also have longer careers. She’s 16. She could be doing this in ten years. Whoever she is, she was good enough for China to send to the Olympics. Sometimes athletes are great in practice and shirk during competition. If Ryan Locthe can also bomb his own race after winning gold, is it that strange to think that someone could do the reverse? And haven’t the Chinese been testing or allowing their athletes to be tested? Would China be so stupid as to suddenly dope a swimmer to shave five seconds off her personal best? Americans dominate at swimming (we’d have more medalists if it weren’t for qualifying rounds) but I donno. The girl did seem to have an unusual build. [Monyihan defends Ye](http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-19062639) I think the American coach who called her out for supposedly doping wasn’t being classy. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2012, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chinese-swimmer-doping-or-jealousy/629868/39 "2012-07-31T18:18:51Z")
I like China and root for them and even my first thought was drugs. I hope it isn’t, I heard they tested her right after she won. But it just reminds me of Beijing when some of the gymnasts were rumored to be 12 years old. They looked 12, but gymnasts usually look young. Plus they were Chinese and so they looked even smaller next to the Americans and Europeans ---
**Author:** ![newcomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e5b9ba/32.png) [@newcomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcomer)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2012, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chinese-swimmer-doping-or-jealousy/629868/40 "2012-07-31T18:26:15Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > If it involves commies, always go with “cheating.” Agreed. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chinese-swimmer-doping-or-jealousy/629868.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chinese-swimmer-doping-or-jealousy/629868.md?page=3)