# Chinese Swimmer: Doping or Jealousy? **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [July 30, 2012, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chinese-swimmer-doping-or-jealousy/629868 "2012-07-30T16:55:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2012, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chinese-swimmer-doping-or-jealousy/629868/41 "2012-07-31T18:34:43Z")
The more I read the less I am inclined to think there is any doping involved. After all, Bob Beamon shattered the long jump record in 1968 by almost 2 feet ( granted it was in the high altitude of Mexico City). Sometimes everything just lines up right for an athlete. ---
**Author:** ![hogarth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hogarth/32/1773_2.png) [@hogarth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hogarth)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2012, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chinese-swimmer-doping-or-jealousy/629868/42 "2012-07-31T18:34:52Z")
> [@Simplicio](#): > > “Not optimal” != “extremely unusual.” As you like. I don’t have an opinion as to whether she’s cheating or not. But it’s pretty clear to me that the point of the article is saying that it was an unusual performance (“disproportionally fast”, “too big”, “not optimal”), rather than saying “its not unusual for a swimmer to have “reserves” left at the final leg of a swim”. YMMV, of course. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2012, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chinese-swimmer-doping-or-jealousy/629868/43 "2012-07-31T18:42:22Z")
> [@Gangster\_Octopus](#): > > The more I read the less I am inclined to think there is any doping involved. After all, Bob Beamon shattered the long jump record in 1968 by almost 2 feet ( granted it was in the high altitude of Mexico City). Sometimes everything just lines up right for an athlete. Not really the same. Swimming the 400 is similar in aerobic/anaerobic metabolism as running the mile. You don’t just drop a sprint like that when your muscles are full of lactic acid and near seizing up. If she did go out “slow”, it’s still insane that she could summon that kind of finishing speed. And it’s very rare to the point of vanishing for a 16 year old to be that far in development of world class talent. ---
**Author:** ![That\_Don\_Guy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/that_don_guy/32/538_2.png) [@That\_Don\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/That_Don_Guy)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2012, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chinese-swimmer-doping-or-jealousy/629868/44 "2012-07-31T18:56:44Z")
> [@Gangster\_Octopus](#): > > The more I read the less I am inclined to think there is any doping involved. After all, Bob Beamon shattered the long jump record in 1968 by almost 2 feet ( granted it was in the high altitude of Mexico City). Sometimes everything just lines up right for an athlete. There was also some question as to whether or not Beamon’s jump may have been wind-aided; the measurement was exactly 2.00m/sec tailwind (had it been 2.01, the record would not have counted). As for Ye, well, they said the same things about Michelle Smith when she came out of nowhere to win both the 200 and 400 IM in Atlanta. The problem is, she later tried to doctor a urine test. Meanwhile, with all suspicious eyes staring at Ye, I’m surprised nobody has accused Lithuanian Lightning, Ruta Meilutyte, who came from out of nowhere to win the 100m breaststroke, of anything other than being a fast swimmer. ---
**Author:** ![Alka\_Seltzer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c89c15/32.png) [@Alka\_Seltzer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alka_Seltzer)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2012, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chinese-swimmer-doping-or-jealousy/629868/45 "2012-07-31T20:12:54Z")
I’ll tell you who the obvious cheat is, that Michael Phelps with his 18 (now 19 as I type) Olympic medals. It’s blatant\*. :rolleyes: Question for anyone assuming Ye is doping. Ian Thorpe knocked 5 second off his personal best at the age of 17. Do you think he was a cheat? Fact is, we just don’t know. Perhaps China routinely dopes their athletes. Or perhaps they take a strong stance against it, mindful of the consequences if they are exposed. Blood samples can be stored for years and re-tested. Does anyone have an informed opinion here? - Sarcasm. ---
**Author:** ![Frosted\_Glass](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/frosted_glass/32/3926_2.png) [@Frosted\_Glass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frosted_Glass)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2012, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chinese-swimmer-doping-or-jealousy/629868/46 "2012-07-31T21:36:29Z")
> [@Alka\_Seltzer](#): > > Fact is, we just don’t know. Perhaps China routinely dopes their athletes. Or perhaps they take a strong stance against it, mindful of the consequences if they are exposed. I find their “history of doping issues” to be the most compelling argument against her. I think that the reaction to her split is a little absurd though. I have run 1600s in sprinting practice for track where we had target splits for the first 3 laps and ran the last lap “all out”. Since we were sprinters, our pacing for a distance race was largely garbage but we would routinely shatter our previous fastest lap on the final lap. While I understand that it is not exactly the same situation, she was swimming a medley. Different strokes will not all tire you out in the same way. Try swimming 4 different strokes for a length or two back to back and you will see what I mean. I can almost guarantee that you will feel a difference in how much energy you exert when you change strokes. That said, I hope she is clean but given the pressure and climate it is hard to surprise people when Olympic cheating is the subject. [A relevant link from the British Olympic Association chair](http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-19062639) ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2012, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chinese-swimmer-doping-or-jealousy/629868/47 "2012-07-31T21:49:17Z")
> [@Frosted\_Glass](#): > > I find their “history of doping issues” to be the most compelling argument against her. I think that the reaction to her split is a little absurd though. I have run 1600s in sprinting practice for track where we had target splits for the first 3 laps and ran the last lap “all out”. Since we were sprinters, our pacing for a distance race was largely garbage but we would routinely shatter our previous fastest lap on the final lap. But you weren’t running at record pace for the first three laps. A mile race run at a tactical pace may result in a fast last lap but will not get near a world record, too much time lost in the slow opening laps. This girl not only was swimming at record pace but she launched an unreal kick. [Here’s](http://www.london2012.com/swimming/event/women-400m-individual-medley/index.html) the last 100m splits for the first four placers. The + sign will show all the splits. 1.58.68 2.62.33 3.61.58 4.62.66 ---
**Author:** ![Frosted\_Glass](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/frosted_glass/32/3926_2.png) [@Frosted\_Glass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frosted_Glass)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2012, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chinese-swimmer-doping-or-jealousy/629868/48 "2012-07-31T22:03:41Z")
> [@runner pat](#): > > But you weren’t running at record pace for the first three laps. A mile race run at a tactical pace may result in a fast last lap but will not get near a world record, too much time lost in the slow opening laps. > This girl not only was swimming at record pace but she launched an unreal kick. > [Here’s](http://www.london2012.com/swimming/event/women-400m-individual-medley/index.html) the last 100m splits for the first four placers. The + sign will show all the splits. > 1.58.68 > 2.62.33 > 3.61.58 > 4.62.66 That is a much better breakdown than most people have given me and it makes a lot more sense than the whole “she swam one leg better than Lochte who is a male but was not the best in that leg” argument. Thank you, because that breakdown is definitely more compelling. My example was just to show that splits can be very deceiving if you do not take them as part of the whole. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2012, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chinese-swimmer-doping-or-jealousy/629868/49 "2012-07-31T22:33:09Z")
> [@runner pat](#): > > And it’s very rare to the point of vanishing for a 16 year old to be that far in development of world class talent. Young swimmers in the news lately: Missy Franklin - gold and silver - 17 Michael Phelps (who is now 27) - has the most medals, but beat his first world record at age 17 Ruta Meilutyte - gold - 15 ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2012, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chinese-swimmer-doping-or-jealousy/629868/50 "2012-07-31T22:52:00Z")
> [@Farmer\_Jane](#): > > Young swimmers in the news lately: > > Missy Franklin - gold and silver - 17 > Michael Phelps (who is now 27) - has the most medals, but beat his first world record at age 17 As per Wiki, Phelps set a world record in the 200-meter butterfly at 15 (and then broke that record at 16). ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2012, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chinese-swimmer-doping-or-jealousy/629868/51 "2012-07-31T23:11:02Z")
Another record broken and another medal for Ye Shiwen. This may turn out like the Irish lady (Michelle Smith) that won 4 in 1996 and had them taken away. For now, she’s an Olympic champion. We’ll see how things develop after the doping tests are run. If she is really drug free then she deserves all the accolades. What bothers me the most is she doesn’t have a prior history of this level of performance. \ I don’t know what to think. > [@](#): > > Swimming sensation Ye Shiwen smashed another Olympic record in winning a second gold last night – as more than 1.5million Twitter users in China attacked ‘smears’ linking her to drugs. > **[Ye's done it again: Chinese swimming sensation, 16, storms to victory in 200m...](https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2181756/Ye-Shiwen-Yes-Chinese-swimming-sensation-16-storms-victory-200m-individual-medley-setting-Olympic-record.html)** > > More than 1.5million Twitter users in China attacked 'smears' linking Ye Shiwen to doping, while her father also attacked the 'arrogant' West over the insinuations. ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2012, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chinese-swimmer-doping-or-jealousy/629868/52 "2012-07-31T23:22:12Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > Another record broken and another medal for Ye Shiwen. This may turn out like the Irish lady (Michelle Smith) that won 4 in 1996 and had them taken away. > > For now, she’s an Olympic champion. We’ll see how things develop after the doping tests are run. If she is really drug free then she deserves all the accolades. > > What bothers me the most is she doesn’t have a prior history of this level of performance. \ I don’t know what to think. > [Ye Shiwen: Ye's done it again: Chinese swimming sensation, 16, storms to victory in 200m individual medley, setting Olympic record | Daily Mail Online](http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2181756/Ye-Shiwen-Yes-Chinese-swimming-sensation-16-storms-victory-200m-individual-medley-setting-Olympic-record.html) Well she did win the 2011 World Championships 200m Medley with a time that was only a little more than a second slower than today’s time. And she broke the Olympic record she is still more than a second off the world record. ---
**Author:** ![Namkcalb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c89c15/32.png) [@Namkcalb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Namkcalb)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2012, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chinese-swimmer-doping-or-jealousy/629868/53 "2012-08-01T01:01:48Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > What an incredibly silly suggestion. > > Are you a professional swimming coach? If not, do you really think that a bunch of rank amateurs could make any meaningful assessment about her technique based on some TV footage? > > Changes in swimming technique, especially at the world-class level, often come down to almost imperceptibly small adjustments in things like hand position, leg kick, body roll, and head position. Much of this stuff would be hard to see even if you had underwater shots played in slow motion; there’s no way you could make much of a meaningful analysis just by watching the regular footage. Okay… perhaps above water footage wouldn’t be enough to judge. ---
**Author:** ![PandaBear77](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/edb3f5/32.png) [@PandaBear77](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PandaBear77)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2012, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chinese-swimmer-doping-or-jealousy/629868/54 "2012-08-01T05:24:18Z")
China’s involved? And it’s the Olympics? I’m gonna go with doping. ---
**Author:** ![Hrududu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Hrududu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hrududu)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2012, 8:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chinese-swimmer-doping-or-jealousy/629868/55 "2012-08-01T08:39:15Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > Another record broken and another medal for Ye Shiwen. This may turn out like the Irish lady (Michelle Smith) that won 4 in 1996 and had them taken away. Michelle Smith didn’t have her medals taken away. She didn’t test positive at the Olympics. A couple of years later she tampered with a sample so there is a definite question over her medals. But she still has her medals. ---
**Author:** ![Alka\_Seltzer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c89c15/32.png) [@Alka\_Seltzer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alka_Seltzer)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2012, 12:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chinese-swimmer-doping-or-jealousy/629868/56 "2012-08-01T12:13:39Z")
I’m disappointed at some of the responses here, and am considering starting a pit thread. Something for you to chew over: US sports-people involved in doping cases - [140](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:American_sportspeople_in_doping_cases). Chinese people involved in doping cases - [10](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Chinese_sportspeople_in_doping_cases). No definitive conclusion can be drawn from that for many reasons (is that list even comprehensive?). However, in terms of documented cases the sports cheats of the world in the current era are the [USA, Russia, Australia and the UK](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Sportspeople_in_doping_cases_by_nationality). Everyone knows about Ben Johnson, but most of the sprinters in that final failed drug tests at some time. The sad legacy of doping is that when we see an exceptional performance we don’t know if it is genuine. In the case of Ye, there is nothing unprecedented in a teenager improving their PB by several seconds in a short period of time. There are both developmental and technical reasons for this. If a swimmer can improve the efficiency of their strokes by half a percent, that translates into a substantial gain. We also really don’t know what the limits of human performance are. With a population of over 1 billion, China can be expected to turn up superstars regularly. I’d be unsurprised if Ye is actually doping, but it’s lazy thinking to assume this. ---
**Author:** ![MilTan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/71e660/32.png) [@MilTan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MilTan)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2012, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chinese-swimmer-doping-or-jealousy/629868/57 "2012-08-01T13:43:12Z")
Looking at Wikipedia links (especially the English Wikipedia) says less than nothing about the prevalence of doping, since it says more about notoriety to English-speakers than anything else; there are more pages on American athletes in general than on Chinese athletes. The most notorious doping scandal in Olympic history was the East German women’s teams in the 70s and 80s: state-sponsored, state-enforced, systematic, near-universal doping. By your metric, however, East German doping pales in comparison to American doping. Along the same lines, history actually tells us that the Chinese had a systematic doping program for women’s swimming in the 80s and 90s (according to the NYT, upwards of _50_ Chinese swimmers were caught doping in that time period). They’re really only second to the East Germans when it comes to doping in swimming. ---
**Author:** ![Colophon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f05b48/32.png) [@Colophon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colophon)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2012, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chinese-swimmer-doping-or-jealousy/629868/58 "2012-08-01T14:05:06Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > Another record broken and another medal for Ye Shiwen. This may turn out like the Irish lady (Michelle Smith) that won 4 in 1996 and had them taken away. Michelle Smith never had her Olympic medals taken away. She was tested positive in [1998](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michelle_Smith#Controversy_and_doping_ban), so obviously there’s a big cloud over them though. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2012, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chinese-swimmer-doping-or-jealousy/629868/59 "2012-08-01T14:19:14Z")
> [@garygnu](#): > > Well, in communist countries it’s systemic. Yeah. Just look at the Chinese dodgeball team from South Park! ---
**Author:** ![Alka\_Seltzer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c89c15/32.png) [@Alka\_Seltzer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alka_Seltzer)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2012, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chinese-swimmer-doping-or-jealousy/629868/60 "2012-08-01T16:42:13Z")
> [@MilTan](#): > > By your metric, however, East German doping pales in comparison to American doping. I specifically said “in this era”. I’m aware of what went on in East German athletics. > [@MilTan](#): > > Along the same lines, history actually tells us that the Chinese had a systematic doping program for women’s swimming in the 80s and 90s (according to the NYT, upwards of _50_ Chinese swimmers were caught doping in that time period). That’s interesting, and depressing. Doesn’t necessarily follow they are systematically doping today though. Obviously, China has invested heavily in winning medals. On the other hand, they wouldn’t want the fallout of being caught cheating. I really hope Ye’s performance is genuine. Sadly, that remains an unknown. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chinese-swimmer-doping-or-jealousy/629868.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chinese-swimmer-doping-or-jealousy/629868.md?page=4)