Chinese translation help, please

[TokyoBayer]

@puzzlegal

I was in Japan (which stole China’s writing) several years ago with a friend who reads Chinese. And he could make out basic information, such as “that place is a noodle shop” solely based on his knowledge of written Chinese. That’s actually quite valuable.

Typically, people use “borrow” rather than “steal” for things such as alphabets and numerals.

As a Japanese nonnative speaker, I found I could get navigate in Taiwan just by understanding Japanese.

@DPRK

As for a Japanese speaker recognizing random Chinese words, or vice versa, roughly 20% of words used in common speech are borrowings (see Sino-Japanese vocabulary - Wikipedia), plus thousands of Chinese characters are used to write Japanese, so that is not amazing, even though the language itself is not related.

The characters can sort of be thought of as root words and often words are exactly the same, although the pronunciation is obviously different. For example, 加入 (jiārù in Chinese and kanyuu in Japanese) means “to join” in both languages.

There are other words that use other characters with similar meanings. “Parking” is 停車 in traditional Chinese or 停车 in simple characters but is 駐車 in Japanese. Both use the same character for car. The first character in Chinese means “to stop” while the first character in Japanese means to stay, reside or park.

For Japanese and Chinese speakers, it’s easy to guess or remember the meaning rather than have to learn from scratch. My Taiwanese wife and I met in Japan and her reading ability in Japanese is much better than mine. She obviously cheated by being born in a country that uses Chinese.

For Japanese, they find traditional Chinese characters in Taiwan easier to read than the simplified Chinese in China.

[puzzlegal]

@TokyoBayer

Typically, people use “borrow” rather than “steal” for things such as alphabets and numerals

I read a story, while in Japan, that Japan sent spies to China for the purpose of obtaining Chinese written language. I guess that felt like “stealing”. But that’s a fair point.

[Didi44]

Here’s some interesting videos about the differences between Northern and Southern Mandarin. I don’t know enough Mandarin or Cantonese to order a meal in a restaurant, but have watched 100’s of Chinese (both Mandarin and Cantonese) for decades.

I got all five right in this video, but was helped by the speaker’s appearance and mannerisms. https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=northern+vs+southern+chinese+

This one is interesting because they ask the person behind the camera for some Cantonese phrases.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TnjPohpoQRI

This compares Mandarin vs Cantonese but it’s interesting because Ben speaks formal Beijing dialect and Carmen (who speaks both Mandarin and Cantonese) points this out in funny ways. Carmen’s Cantonese is interesting because it has a twinge of an Australian accent, where she grew up and her Mandarin is more informal.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e73btaVo868

This one is just for fun. Another one from Off the Great Wall. This is the blooper at the end of the video.
https://youtu.be/B7xNCy9NhFE?t=125
It’s a running joke that Dan’s (who was born in Shanghai) Mandarin is really bad and I think it’s clear even to those of use who don’t speak the language!
Here’s the dubbed version in the context of the skit: https://youtu.be/B7xNCy9NhFE
I’m 99% sure Carmen is speaking Cantonese.

[Didi44]

I’ve posted about this before. When I first started watching Hong Kong movies, which used to be required to always have Chinese subtitles in addition to English, I couldn’t understand why the length of what they were saying often didn’t match the length of the Chinese subs, which in theory should be a 1:1 direct match to each word spoken… I learned that Cantonese has words and phrases that can’t be directly translated into Hanzi (Chinese characters).

I can’t remember the name, but there was at least one Hong Kong newspaper that was written in Cantonese, which would probably be illegible to a non-Cantonese speaker.

A bit of trivia of great importance and sadness. Despite mainland China’s promise to keep Hong Kong a Special Administrative Region (One Country, Two Systems) that is allowed to continue for 50 years after 1997, many news sources, especially newspapers are being forcibly shut down.

[mordecaiB]

@Mijin

Everywhere else on the mainland, basically everyone understands standard Mandarin as the lingua franca even if it’s not their first language.
However, when they speak Mandarin it might be difficult for others to understand, as they may speak it with a thick accent and various local colloquialisms. Certainly I have been present in situations where one native chinese person spoke Mandarin and another native chinese person could not understand anything they said because the speaker’s Mandarin was “too local”.

So, in terms of your question…yes and no. Probably. But maybe not.

That’s pretty much what I thought. Eleventy billion people spread over such a large area has to splinter the language. Before modern transportation/communication, I’m sure it was even more divided.

@TokyoBayer

For Japanese and Chinese speakers, it’s easy to guess or remember the meaning rather than have to learn from scratch. My Taiwanese wife and I met in Japan and her reading ability in Japanese is much better than mine. She obviously cheated by being born in a country that uses Chinese.

Wives are tricky like that.

@Didi44

Here’s some interesting videos about the differences between Northern and Southern Mandarin. I don’t know enough Mandarin or Cantonese to order a meal in a restaurant, but have watched 100’s of Chinese (both Mandarin and Cantonese) for decades.

This shows I will never speak Mandarin. Even when I know the word they are saying, I can’t understand it half the time.

Since there are so many people with China experience here, has the government ever tried to force a single language policy? Or is there an advantage to the government to having so many different languages?

Thanks again for all the replies!

[Didi44]

Arggh…My first link is to the search page. Here’s the direct link to the dialect challenge: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zfNbq3s_51o

[DPRK]

“Literary Chinese” (a written language, compare the role of Latin in Europe) used to be used for official purposes in China until 1919, and was also used outside China. Obviously, things are different now, and the government promotes “putonghua”, but other languages still officially exist.

@mordecaiB

is there an advantage to the government to having so many different languages

Generally speaking, people do not like being forbidden to speak their own language, so the advantage is not pissing them off. Not that “linguistic domination” has not been more or less successful concept in many cases: in France, school was made free and mandatory in 1881, and conducted in “proper” French, the sole official language. In Ireland, I doubt there are any monolingual Irish speakers left. In Greece, Demotic was made the official language in 1976, and so on. So the state can “force” people to adopt certain dialects via the educational system.

[mordecaiB]

@DPRK

Obviously, things are different now, and the government promotes “putonghua”, but other languages still officially exist.

Another new word for me. Thank you for all the info you’ve put forth in this thread, it’s been a big help.

@DPRK

Generally speaking, people do not like being forbidden to speak their own language, so the advantage is not pissing them off.

Yeah, that’s probably a pretty good one on it’s own.

When there is a nationwide thing, maybe taxes or a census, do non-Mandarin speakers get papers in their own language to fill out? Or is everything Mandarin and you just do the best you can?

Also, if it’s not too personal to ask, are you a North Korean? Or does your name mean something else? Telling me to piss off is an acceptable answer.

@Didi44

Arggh…My first link is to the search page. Here’s the direct link to the dialect challenge: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zfNbq3s_51o

I got 3 right by guessing north to the ones that sounded harsher, more like fake Chinese in an old movie.

[Didi44]

“Literary Chinese” (a written language, compare the role of Latin in Europe) used to be used for official purposes in China until 1919, and was also used outside China. Obviously, things are different now, and the government promotes “putonghua”, but other languages still officially exist.

Yay. Using some trivia I learned over the years!

Classical Chinese is said to be closer to Cantonese than Mandarin, making poems in particular odd sounding if recited in Mandarin. https://www.google.com/search?q=classical+chinese+cantonese&rlz=1C1ASVC_enUS940US940&oq=classical+chinese+cantonese&aqs=chrome…69i57.7432j0j4&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

As the capital of China and the empirical ruled moved North and South throughout history, the preferred dialect/language* changed. If Mao was from the South, the official language may have been Gwongdungwa (Cantonese)!

*There’s debate whether Cantonese is a dialect or language. The argument for a separate language is that it’s usually unintelligible to a Mandarin only speaker.

I got 3 right by guessing north to the ones that sounded harsher, more like fake Chinese in an old movie.

That’s funny because I think the exact opposite. I think Northern Mandarin is higher pitched and sing-song, especially Beijing dialect. I find Southern Mandarin more guttural, like the Liverpool accent.

Personally, after decades of watching Hong Kong movies, I find Cantonese very pleasant sounding and expressive, especially when the ending word is drawn out as Ben in the Off The Great Wall video points out.

You may find this video by Chinese with Jessie (the second video linked above). She compares the Mandarin in Fresh Off the Boat, catching who is a mainland Mandarin speaker (as she is), who’s Taiwanese and who’s a non-Mandarin speaker. It’s especially interesting when she explain in easy to understand terms (at least for me) how Taiwanese Mandarin differs from Mainland Mandarin.** https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wu_TFcJyFtc

**My favorite actress, Joey Wong Jyo Yin / Wang Tsu Hsien is from Taiwan and I could never figure out why her Mandarin sounded different from other Mandarin speakers.

I like her and I’ve watching her other videos, but I find it a little unfair when she criticizes Taiwanese as not proper Mandarin.

[TokyoBayer]

@puzzlegal

I read a story, while in Japan, that Japan sent spies to China for the purpose of obtaining Chinese written language. I guess that felt like “stealing”. But that’s a fair point.

And you are seriously accepting that story at face value? You still do?

Cite?

[puzzlegal]

It was in some museum, probably in Kyoto. It may be made up, but it was an interesting enough story that I remembered it.

[TokyoBayer]

It may be made up?

Cite?

[puzzlegal]

I gave you my cite. An exhibit that I read in some museum.

Take it for what it’s worth. Wikipedia gives a history of Japanese writing totally inconsistent with that story, so I’ll stop repeating it, except to say that it seems to be a piece of folklore. You have to admit it’s colorful.

[HazyFantazy]

Chinese is a hard language to learn. Pinyin doesn’t always help.

Lion-Eating Poet in the Stone Den

[Mijin]

It should be noted though that the poem was written by a linguist as a demonstration.
It mixes modern and archaic characters, and abbreviates some two-character words that include shi down to just shi when in fact that would not be well understood.

It’s a bit like the buffalo buffalo buffalo… sentence, only worse, since at least that sentence is all in modern English.

Pinyin has its problems IMO (see spoiler below), but the shi poem doesn’t really illustrate any problems.

1. Inconsistency in the “uo” final. So that, for example, “bo” and “guo” rhyme.
2. Weirdness with the letter “y”. Such that, for example, “yan” and “tan” do not rhyme.
3. Representing the third tone with a falling rising diacritic catches a lot of Chinese learners out. In fairness though, third tone characters in isolation have a falling rising tone, it’s just that that’s not the way they are spoken in actual words.
   Probably others, these three were just the first that came to mind. Overall I really like Pinyin though.

[DPRK]

Of course Mandarin Pinyin will not help you with Classical Chinese Poetry; what you need is this authoritative Chinese rhyme dictionary conceived by a bunch of drunk poets speaking different dialects during the Sui dynasty.

[DPRK]

From the introduction to “A New Practical Primer of Literary Chinese” [if you already know English, teach yourself Classical Chinese!]:

Even though literary Chinese is best begun through a study of classical texts from China, the language itself is an international written language of East Asia and consequently must not be thought or considered to be merely an “earlier stage” of Mandarin or of the other modern Chinese dialects.

Literary Chinese had one major advantage as a written form of communication outside China: because it was not a phonetically based language and provided a rich vocabulary for representing complex ideas, it could be adopted by different emerging cultures as a system of signification that defined cultural literacy and even made intercultural communication possible (in this sense, it played to a much greater extent the same role Latin did in the medieval and Renaissance West). Ultimately, most educated men and women in Korea, Japan, the Ryukyu Islands, and Vietnam before the twentieth century could read (and often write) literary Chinese to some extent. In addition, and what is perhaps more significant, literary Chinese came to influence the vocabulary and style of the vernacular languages as well, in spite of its alien syntax.

In other words, Chinese was the polar opposite of a secret language that the Japanese would have to steal. What did take place in Japan, of course, was a debate as to how exactly modern Japanese (not Chinese) should be written down.