# Chins, evolution, and pointless survival
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chins-evolution-and-pointless-survival/837947
**Category:** In My Humble Opinion
**Created:** [July 31, 2019, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chins-evolution-and-pointless-survival/837947 "2019-07-31T19:26:46Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)
#### Post date: [July 31, 2019, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chins-evolution-and-pointless-survival/837947/1 "2019-07-31T19:26:46Z")
Most people think that evolution is all about the “survival of the fittest.” This is incorrect. It is about the “survival of what didn’t kill the organism or cause the organism to be killed.” As a result animals, including modern humans, are mish mashes of advantageous features and features which have no advantage and no real purpose, but don’t get in the way.
My contribution to the list I hope we assemble is the prominent chin on modern humans. Vertebrates got on fine without them for hundreds of millions of years. Even our closest relatives lacked protruding chins. So why do we have them? I dunno, but my best guess is that one guy had one, the ladies swooned, and lots of little Cary Grants were born. Then one of those evolutionary bottlenecks reduced the human population to mostly members of the Cary Grant tribe and Bob’s your uncle, here we are, sharing a feature with the only advantage of getting one caveman laid.
Can you think of other useless crap that missed Evolution’s merciless scythe?
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### Author:  [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)
#### Post date: [July 31, 2019, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chins-evolution-and-pointless-survival/837947/2 "2019-07-31T20:02:53Z")
> [@dropzone](#):
>
> It is about the “survival of what didn’t kill the organism or cause the organism to be killed.”
Not entirely true. Selection of mates is a huge factor in natural selection, and seems to be the relevant one here.
> [@dropzone](#):
>
> My contribution to the list I hope we assemble is the prominent chin on modern humans. Vertebrates got on fine without them for hundreds of millions of years. Even our closest relatives lacked protruding chins. So why do we have them?
There are theories as to the ontogeny of the human chin, one says it facilitates speech, one says it makes it easier to chew, and another says it helps with balance when we are upright. People who speak better have an advantage both for survival and reproductive purposes. People who chew better might whine less about their gums, and therefore be slightly more attractive as a mate. We could speculate all day here, and if you are really interested I’m sure we could dig up some cites.
~Max
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### Author:  [@Sigene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sigene)
#### Post date: [July 31, 2019, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chins-evolution-and-pointless-survival/837947/3 "2019-07-31T20:29:43Z")
> **[Neoteny](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoteny)**
>
> Neoteny (/niˈɒtəni/), also called juvenilization, is the delaying or slowing of the physiological, or somatic, development of an organism, typically an animal. Neoteny is found in modern humans compared to other primates. In progenesis or paedogenesis, sexual development is accelerated.
> Both neoteny and progenesis result in paedomorphism (as having the form typical of children) or paedomorphosis (changing towards forms typical of children), a type of heterochrony. It is the retention in adults o...
THis is the idea delaying of physical development so that young looking organisms are able to reproduce.
I think it is a greater and complex evolutionary advantage to delay our physical development as we grow…it allows us big brains, long juvenile times which translates into long periods of time when learning is at its peak.
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### Author:  [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)
#### Post date: [July 31, 2019, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chins-evolution-and-pointless-survival/837947/4 "2019-07-31T21:20:57Z")
Without our prominent chins, how would we fold pillow cases?
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### Author:  [@markn\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/markn_1)
#### Post date: [July 31, 2019, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chins-evolution-and-pointless-survival/837947/5 "2019-07-31T21:21:05Z")
> [@dropzone](#):
>
> Most people think that evolution is all about the “survival of the fittest.” This is incorrect. It is about the “survival of what didn’t kill the organism or cause the organism to be killed.”
No, it’s about “traits which lead to reproduction”. Any traits that allow the organism to survive at the expense of reproductive fitness will not be selected for. Any traits that do lead to reproductive success at the expense of overall fitness WILL be selected for. The classic example is the peacock’s tail, which reduces the bird’s overall fitness but attracts the peahens like crazy.
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### Author:  [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)
#### Post date: [July 31, 2019, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chins-evolution-and-pointless-survival/837947/6 "2019-07-31T21:25:45Z")
> [@panache45](#):
>
> Without our prominent chins, how would we fold pillow cases?
teeth
~Max
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### Author:  [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)
#### Post date: [July 31, 2019, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chins-evolution-and-pointless-survival/837947/7 "2019-07-31T23:51:26Z")
You fold pillow cases?
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### Author:  [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)
#### Post date: [July 31, 2019, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chins-evolution-and-pointless-survival/837947/8 "2019-07-31T23:53:53Z")
> [@Sigene](#):
>
> [Neoteny - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoteny)
>
> THis is the idea delaying of physical development so that young looking organisms are able to reproduce.
>
> I think it is a greater and complex evolutionary advantage to delay our physical development as we grow…it allows us big brains, long juvenile times which translates into long periods of time when learning is at its peak.
There’s nothing neotenous about Bruce Campbell’s chin.
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### Author:  [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)
#### Post date: [July 31, 2019, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chins-evolution-and-pointless-survival/837947/9 "2019-07-31T23:57:42Z")
> [@Max\_S](#):
>
> There are theories as to the ontogeny of the human chin, one says it facilitates speech, one says it makes it easier to chew, and another says it helps with balance when we are upright. People who speak better have an advantage both for survival and reproductive purposes. People who chew better might whine less about their gums, and therefore be slightly more attractive as a mate. We could speculate all day here, and if you are really interested I’m sure we could dig up some cites.
>
> ~Max
Now you’re just trying to ruin my day. 😉
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### Author:  [@Rayks\_Marcial](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rayks_Marcial)
#### Post date: [August 1, 2019, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chins-evolution-and-pointless-survival/837947/10 "2019-08-01T01:42:42Z")
I do know the usual difference between a male and female chin for forensic purposes.
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### Author:  [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)
#### Post date: [August 1, 2019, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chins-evolution-and-pointless-survival/837947/11 "2019-08-01T01:49:33Z")
Which is?
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### Author:  [@Rayks\_Marcial](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rayks_Marcial)
#### Post date: [August 1, 2019, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chins-evolution-and-pointless-survival/837947/12 "2019-08-01T01:54:20Z")
When trying to determine the gender of a skeleton. A male jaw bone tends to have a uniform curvature and thickness at the lower edge (for maximum strength, I suppose.) A female jaw is often thinner at the chin in profile, and has a flattening right at the underside of the chin, making it weaker than a male’s, and where soft tissue accumulate. That’s why women have soft chins. It’s also easy to spot a trans by looking at his/her chin.
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### Author:  [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)
#### Post date: [August 1, 2019, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chins-evolution-and-pointless-survival/837947/13 "2019-08-01T03:28:32Z")
I used to know that. ☹
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### Author:  [@Mcmechanic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mcmechanic)
#### Post date: [August 1, 2019, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chins-evolution-and-pointless-survival/837947/14 "2019-08-01T04:51:53Z")
Does a a protruding chin help as far as fighting with other humans? No idea just asking, it’s all I could think of
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### Author:  [@Rayks\_Marcial](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rayks_Marcial)
#### Post date: [August 1, 2019, 6:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chins-evolution-and-pointless-survival/837947/15 "2019-08-01T06:35:26Z")
I practiced judo before and people who easily gotten choked on the ground were those who either had long necks, or small chins. It’s a matter slipping your forearm from behind in and under his chin to apply pressure on his neck. Bending one’s head forward so as to make your chin touch your upper chest will help to defend against that.
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### Author:  [@Toxylon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Toxylon)
#### Post date: [August 1, 2019, 8:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chins-evolution-and-pointless-survival/837947/16 "2019-08-01T08:31:25Z")
[Male chins do offer a survival advantage](https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-27720617)
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### Author:  [@Two\_Many\_Cats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Two_Many_Cats)
#### Post date: [August 1, 2019, 10:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chins-evolution-and-pointless-survival/837947/17 "2019-08-01T10:09:06Z")
> [@Toxylon](#):
>
> [Male chins do offer a survival advantage](https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-27720617)
So, ‘a punchable face’ is genetically inherited?
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### Author:  [@Two\_Many\_Cats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Two_Many_Cats)
#### Post date: [August 1, 2019, 10:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chins-evolution-and-pointless-survival/837947/18 "2019-08-01T10:11:18Z")
> [@Toxylon](#):
>
> [Male chins do offer a survival advantage](https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-27720617)
So, ‘a punchable face’ is genetically inherited?
Is the ‘resting bitch face’ even being studied? Of course not.
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### Author:  [@Two\_Many\_Cats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Two_Many_Cats)
#### Post date: [August 1, 2019, 10:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chins-evolution-and-pointless-survival/837947/19 "2019-08-01T10:15:41Z")
Is double posting a genetic aberration?
How about triple posting?
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### Author:  [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)
#### Post date: [August 1, 2019, 11:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chins-evolution-and-pointless-survival/837947/20 "2019-08-01T11:20:23Z")
> [@dropzone](#):
>
> Most people think that evolution is all about the “survival of the fittest.” This is incorrect. It is about the “survival of what didn’t kill the organism or cause the organism to be killed.” As a result animals, including modern humans, are mish mashes of advantageous features and features which have no advantage and no real purpose, but don’t get in the way.
>
> My contribution to the list I hope we assemble is the prominent chin on modern humans. Vertebrates got on fine without them for hundreds of millions of years. Even our closest relatives lacked protruding chins. So why do we have them? I dunno, but my best guess is that one guy had one, the ladies swooned, and lots of little Cary Grants were born. Then one of those evolutionary bottlenecks reduced the human population to mostly members of the Cary Grant tribe and Bob’s your uncle, here we are, sharing a feature with the only advantage of getting one caveman laid.
>
> Can you think of other useless crap that missed Evolution’s merciless scythe?
I submit that the flaw I your argument isn’t that it got _one_ caveman laid, but a whole succession of them, where they were chosen by discriminating cavewomen over competing Chinless Wonders. And that, in fact, the trend continued long after cavemen days. That’s how sexual selection works. If it didn’t, eventually the Chinless Wonders would eventually be successful enough to make chinlessness as common as prominent chins.
We’ve got significant chins because it has some advantage in Natural or Sexual selection. I opt for the latter.
And it’s not just prominent chins. People have expressed an interest in _cleft_[ chins, as well.
I agree with Desmond Morris ( who, before he started writing books about humans, was an animal behaviorist ) that the human nose and cleft chin represents a powerful penis-and-scrotum mimic
> **[Peoplewatching](https://books.google.com/books?id=8B_1PfLTDcMC&pg=PA368&lpg=PA368&dq=cleft%2Bchin%2Bas%2Bscrotum%2Becho&source=bl&ots=xPmChvg_d_&sig=ACfU3U0EsEYmVWecpylB-QVqCfM7qJE9GQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjSvqqfxuHjAhVEhOAKHa7HAK0Q6AEwDnoECAkQAQ#v=onepage&q=cleft%20chin%20as%20scrotum%20echo&f=false)**
>
> Peoplewatching is the culmination of a career of watching people - their behaviour and habits, their personalities and their quirks. Desmond Morris shows us how people, consciously and unconsciously, signal their attitudes, desires and innermost...
Why else value the prominent cleft chin in men , and scorn it in women (nobody sings the praises of a strong cleft chin in women. Or of a large nose, Barbra Steisand notwithstanding)
In other words, survival of the chin isn’t pointless. A pointed chin has a point.
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