# Chivalry Sucks **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 26, 2000, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chivalry-sucks/34649 "2000-09-26T19:40:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Helen\_s\_Eidolon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Helen\_s\_Eidolon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Helen_s_Eidolon)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2000, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chivalry-sucks/34649/81 "2000-09-27T17:02:57Z")
Zette, I think you’ve got my point =\> What I am trying to say by using the doors as an example is that there are things in society we need to change as well as in the law etc. > [@](#): > > I can also see your point about pulling out chairs and paying for dates. If that is not your bag, no problem. People don’t do those things to “put down” each other or insult them. They do them because they care about the person and those are ways of expressing it. As long as some women enjoy that treatment, it will continue. I’m not saying these are the “building blocks of opression” but I AM saying that these are the little inequalities that are built into our society that we don’t even notice anymore. Actually, in my opinion, chivalry is an inequality AGAINST men, they shouldn’t need to treat us better than them. I just wanted to point out that maybe it’s time women stopped enjoying the “special” treatment. ---
**Author:** ![divemaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/divemaster/32/78_2.png) [@divemaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/divemaster)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2000, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chivalry-sucks/34649/82 "2000-09-27T17:10:56Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Missy2U \* > \*\*And, am I the ONLY person in the world who really thought VogueVixen was being sarcastic… \*\* Well, it’s hard to tell sometimes in this medium. I was one of the first to give voguevixen both barrels, but only after I prefaced my comments with the hopes that she would admit she was joking or being sarcastic. Maybe she will return to clear the air if, indeed, she has been misunderstood. ---
**Author:** ![BoBettie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4af34b/32.png) [@BoBettie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BoBettie)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2000, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chivalry-sucks/34649/83 "2000-09-27T17:20:21Z")
So (now I think we’re getting somewhere- a great debate perhaps?), the point is this? Women should stop expecting or accepting “special” treatment from men. (Expecting/allowing them to always pay for dates, pulling out chairs, opening car doors, etc) Accepting or encouraging this behavior trains society toperceive them as weaker, and that is bad. Correct? If so, I agree on some aspects and disagree on others. Zette ---
**Author:** ![Helen\_s\_Eidolon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Helen\_s\_Eidolon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Helen_s_Eidolon)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2000, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chivalry-sucks/34649/84 "2000-09-27T17:27:49Z")
Very close, Zette. I’m not so much concerned that these treatments cause men to percieve us as weaker (although that may also be a problem), as I think it’s unfair. To sum up as best as I can, we are demaning equal treament, equal pay scales etc. Isn’t it hypocritical of us to expect “special” attention, then? (and maybe I posted it in the Pit as a “pissed off” thread 'cause i was in an annoyed mood, was I wrong to do so?) ---
**Author:** ![LouisB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/dfb087/32.png) [@LouisB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LouisB)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2000, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chivalry-sucks/34649/85 "2000-09-27T17:30:52Z")
I started dating when I was fourteen. It would never have occurred to me not to open the car door for a date and it would never have occurred to me not to pull back a chair at a table for her. It would never have occurred to me to let a date open a door, either. And if I had remained sitting when she entered a room, there would probably have never been a second date. That was forty-six years ago and I am still doing the same things. I don’t recall a single instance where being polite cost me anything nor do I recall anyone ever being openly offended by it. So I suppose I will continue opening doors and pulling back chairs and standing when a woman enters a room. Even if a woman kicked me in the 'nads, I would still do the same for the next one. ---
**Author:** ![BoBettie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4af34b/32.png) [@BoBettie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BoBettie)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2000, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chivalry-sucks/34649/86 "2000-09-27T18:08:36Z")
> [@](#): > > (and maybe I posted it in the Pit as a “pissed off” thread 'cause i was in an annoyed mood, was I wrong to do so?) No, I don’t think you were wrong. I truely believe this is a good, debatable discussion. I think your original intent was not clear, therefore you got slammed. You can post whatever you want in the Pit, but I’ve learned (from experience) not to post debatable issues. They get extremely nasty. If it were MY thread, I would just request that it be closed by e-mailing the mods. Reason being: even though the point is now MUCH clearer, many people will read the OP and just keep slamming you for it. Perhaps you should have this thread closed, then open another in GD. Zette (man, this stuff is WAY too nice for the Pit.) ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2000, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chivalry-sucks/34649/87 "2000-09-27T19:54:45Z")
Falcon, As I’m sure our favourite Mountie would agree: ‘Aggression gets attention,but courtesy gets respect’. Jester, you said ‘glee, you absolutely, positively kick ass. Thanks for the reiteration.’ My pleasure - but I don’t like any violence 😕 LaurAnge, You posted ‘Now, maybe the problem is that I can’t express myself properly, since so many of you have obviously missed my point. My point isn’t that no one should hold doors open for other people, or give up seats on the bus for people who look like they need it, or be polite in general. What I’m criticizing is the principle.’ Actually I am having difficulty following you. What principle? And later ‘…If more people were polite like that, the world would be a better place. But that isn’t my point!!!’ Ok, what is your point? You continued ‘About the date, _shrugs_ If that’s the way his date wants to be treated… And I bet he pays for her meal and for the movie and picks her up, too. If that’s what makes HER feel special, I can’t say anything about it. But my boyfriend and I alternate paying for movies and all the rest, and that makes ME happy. I can’t help thinking that it shouldn’t be expected that the man pay for everything…’ Well this is certainly an interesting area. I’ve dated women who liked all the chivalrous treatment. I’ve gone out with women who wanted to share the costs (we call it ‘going Dutch’). I’ve gone out with women who earnt far more than me, and some who didn’t have a job. It would be a separate thread to discuss ‘How do you tell what a woman wants on a date?’. You replied to my point about women-only events: ‘In my mind, competition is about classing the group of people who have similar physical attributes together to start on a semi-even playing field. For example, there are weight categories in wrestling. It makes sense to me, but I can see your point as well.’ Well actually, I don’t think you see my point. I can slim down to make a weight category. But I need a sex-change operation to play in women’s tennis, or women’s golf events. Why do YOU think this is fair? LouisB, Welcome! I especially like your post '…I don’t recall a single instance where being polite cost me anything nor do I recall anyone ever being openly offended by it. So I suppose I will continue opening doors and pulling back chairs and standing when a woman enters a room. Even if a woman kicked me in the ‘nads, I would still do the same for the next one’. I was going to change the last sentence to 'Even if a militant feminist kicked me in the ‘nads, I would still do the same for the next lady’, but that would have been rude 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Helen\_s\_Eidolon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Helen\_s\_Eidolon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Helen_s_Eidolon)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2000, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chivalry-sucks/34649/88 "2000-09-27T20:07:06Z")
glee, you said: > [@](#): > > Ok, what is your point? I’m not putting down politeness, I’m putting down the fact that sometimes it is done on a solely gender-based reason. And as to the people who were saying the problem wasn’t that men do hold doors, but that women don’t are also quite right =\> > [@](#): > > Well actually, I don’t think you see my point. I can slim down to make a weight category. But I need a sex-change operation to play in women’s tennis, or women’s golf events. Why do YOU think this is fair? I DO see your point. And I have to admit, it is a fine line. Then again, women and men ARE physically different. As are people in different weight categories. Athletic competition is meant as a challenge, not an impossibility. And to tell you the truth, I’m not sure at all how this makes sense, so I’ll take any flames for irrationality and hypocrisy lying down (about this topic, anyway). I’m interested to see what you (glee) think about the post where I said: > [@](#): > > To sum up as best as I can, we are demaning equal treament, equal pay scales etc. Isn’t it hypocritical of us to expect “special” attention, then? And before I close the thread and open it in GD (as per Zette’s recommendation) does anyone object? ---
**Author:** ![Jodi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7feea3/32.png) [@Jodi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jodi)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2000, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chivalry-sucks/34649/89 "2000-09-27T20:21:50Z")
LaurAnge, in this medium, people can only respond to what you actually said, not to what you meant or later wish you’d said. That seems self-evident, but your “screaming” about people missing your “point” does not seem to take into account that what appeared to be your point initially is not, apparently, the point you want to make now. > [@](#): > > Well, fine, I’ll admit to you all that maybe I picked a bad example of my point. Equal pay scales and things like that are also very much what I meant. I used the door-holding as an example of something that everyone here can relate to. Bad example? It’s a piss-poor example. You decided to complain about an action that is innocuous, unimportant and quite likely well-meaning (holding doors) instead of one that is not innocent, is very important, and cannot be justified by meaning well (the failure to pay both genders equally for equal work). I’m sure if you had raised the second (important) point instead of the first (unimportant) one, the responses you received would have been far different. And again, I personally wonder whether your energies might not be better spent fighting the fights that are _worth_ fighting over, rather than distracting peoples attention away from important issues by complaining about unimportant ones. > [@](#): > > In my opinion, the women that have been detrimental to our cause are the ones that begin to believe that women are BETTER than men and should have more rights (Yes, I have met those kinds of people, too). I believe that we should be treated equally. But this is not what you said. You did not say that it pisses you off that women who demand equal treatment simultaneously demand deferential treatment – which they should not be able to do, I agree – but that men who hold doors irritate you. That is not the same thing, especially when you assign to those men nefarious motives that you could not possible know unless you are a mind-reader. > [@](#): > > And, even if assuming that every man who has gone far out of his way to hold the door for me was just an especially nice person, I still have spoken to people who admit to doing it because the person they are holding the door open for is a woman. Does anyone disagree with me that this practice still happens, whether to me or not? Do you seriously quiz people who perform common courtesies for you as to their motivation? How alarming. I do not know whether the man who holds the door for me is doing so because I’m a woman or because he is nice. With the option of assigning either motive – and, unlike you, lacking the desire to grill him on it – I will assume he is being nice. What do you imagine you accomplish by assuming otherwise? You are fairly new (though you promise to be a good addition to the Board), but I hope in time you come to realize how gently treated you have been in this thread, considering that your original post was not in fact what you wanted to say and that your true point remains unclear. Zette, in particular, has been kinder to you than some might think your OP deserved. Now, you can either be grateful for the collective kindness or decide that the failure to bust your chops stems from the fact that you’re a woman. That would be one more indication of inequality, and one more reason to be righteously pissed off, right? Forgive me if I do not joint you. ---
**Author:** ![Jodi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7feea3/32.png) [@Jodi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jodi)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2000, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chivalry-sucks/34649/90 "2000-09-27T20:27:30Z")
LaurAnge, in this medium, people can only respond to what you actually said, not to what you meant or later wish you’d said. That seems self-evident, but your “screaming” about people missing your “point” does not seem to take into account that what appeared to be your point initially is not, apparently, the point you want to make now. > [@](#): > > Well, fine, I’ll admit to you all that maybe I picked a bad example of my point. Equal pay scales and things like that are also very much what I meant. I used the door-holding as an example of something that everyone here can relate to. Bad example? It’s a piss-poor example. You decided to complain about an action that is innocuous, unimportant and quite likely well-meaning (holding doors) instead of one that is not innocent, is very important, and cannot be justified by meaning well (the failure to pay both genders equally for equal work). I’m sure if you had raised the second (important) point instead of the first (unimportant) one, the responses you received would have been far different. And again, I personally wonder whether your energies might not be better spent fighting the fights that are _worth_ fighting over, rather than distracting peoples attention away from important issues by complaining about unimportant ones. > [@](#): > > In my opinion, the women that have been detrimental to our cause are the ones that begin to believe that women are BETTER than men and should have more rights (Yes, I have met those kinds of people, too). I believe that we should be treated equally. But this is not what you said. You did not say that it pisses you off that women who demand equal treatment simultaneously demand deferential treatment – which they should not be able to do, I agree – but that men who hold doors irritate you. That is not the same thing, especially when you assign to those men nefarious motives that you could not possible know unless you are a mind-reader. > [@](#): > > And, even if assuming that every man who has gone far out of his way to hold the door for me was just an especially nice person, I still have spoken to people who admit to doing it because the person they are holding the door open for is a woman. Does anyone disagree with me that this practice still happens, whether to me or not? Do you seriously quiz people who perform common courtesies for you as to their motivation? How alarming. I do not know whether the man who holds the door for me is doing so because I’m a woman or because he is nice. With the option of assigning either motive – and, unlike you, lacking the desire to grill him on it – I will assume he is being nice. What do you imagine you accomplish by assuming otherwise? You are fairly new (though you promise to be a good addition to the Board), but I hope in time you come to realize how gently treated you have been in this thread, considering that your original post was not in fact what you wanted to say and that your true point remains unclear. Zette, in particular, has been kinder to you than some might think your OP deserved. Now, you can either be grateful for the collective kindness or decide that the failure to bust your chops stems from the fact that you’re a woman. That would be one more indication of inequality, and one more reason to be righteously pissed off, right? Forgive me if I do not joint you. ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2000, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chivalry-sucks/34649/91 "2000-09-27T21:14:19Z")
LaurAnge, you asked me to comment on your post: ‘I’m not so much concerned that these treatments cause men to perceive us as weaker (although that may also be a problem), as I think it’s unfair. To sum up as best as I can, we are demanding equal treament, equal pay scales etc. Isn’t it hypocritical of us to expect “special” attention, then?’ I think you are tackling an important subject, but perhaps going too far in one small area. You’re absolutely right to demand (and it’s a disgrace that you have to ‘demand’) equal pay at work, and equal treatment in law etc. I think the reason you’re attracting criticism is the full implications of ‘equal treatment’ and particularly “special” attention on simple chivalry. If you want to split the cheque on a date, that’s fine by me. If some women want “special” attention on a date, then I’m happy to provide it. But let me open a door for both types of women (and all men too!) Now I’m only kidding you about women’s tennis - but if you insist on full equality, then these events have got to go! So some minor differences in sexual treatment must be tolerable. OK, I do open doors out of politeness (and I’m glad you agree I should teach my pupils this habit). I will now confess that although I open doors for EVERYONE, I’m secretly pleased if it happens (N.B. HAPPENS) to be an attractive women. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![voguevixen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b5ac83/32.png) [@voguevixen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/voguevixen)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2000, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chivalry-sucks/34649/92 "2000-09-27T21:15:09Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Missy2U \* > \*\* > And, am I the ONLY person in the world who really thought VogueVixen was being sarcastic or am I just an idiot? Probably, I’m an idiot… \*\* No apparently everyone else is an idiot, lol…Like I’m going to go around kicking people in the nuts! (Although some of you sound like you need it ;)) I’ll say it again and use small words this time: Holding door for someone as you go through: GOOD! Running up past someone to open the door, and then getting mad because that person A) Isn’t walking up to the door fast enough, B) dosen’t jump up and down and cover you with kisses, and C) Hi Opal (come on, I can’t believe YOU didn’t get it.) **BAD**! ---
**Author:** ![Diane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/2acd7d/32.png) [@Diane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diane)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2000, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chivalry-sucks/34649/93 "2000-09-27T21:19:27Z")
Oh Jeeezus!!! Rest assured men, that the few (thankfully) ungrateful (time to pull out my most despised, rarely used “C” word because it is very appropriate) cunts displayed in this thread are the exception. I am a lady and I enjoy being treated like one. As for the shrews, feel free to slam the door in their scowling ugly mugs and don’t expect me to shed a tear if you decide to defend your nads with a sharp uppercut to their snooty fuckin nose. In fact, I would love to watch! ---
**Author:** ![Diane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/2acd7d/32.png) [@Diane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diane)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2000, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chivalry-sucks/34649/94 "2000-09-27T21:22:03Z")
VogueVixen - Nice attempt to save. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![voguevixen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b5ac83/32.png) [@voguevixen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/voguevixen)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2000, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chivalry-sucks/34649/95 "2000-09-27T21:35:13Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Diane \* > \*\*VogueVixen - Nice attempt to save. :rolleyes: \*\* Save what? I’m only reiterating what I said to begin with, and I believe the OP was saying as well. No one’s saying “don’t HOLD the door.” Anyone who’s arguing that needs to go back and re-read. ---
**Author:** ![Sauron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce7236/32.png) [@Sauron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sauron)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2000, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chivalry-sucks/34649/96 "2000-09-27T21:55:07Z")
You’re right, voguevixen. If a man runs ahead of you to open the door, then stand there and says “Come on, sweetheart, I don’t have all day,” then he’s being a jerk. However, if you and I are approaching a door, I will likely speed up a bit to open it for you. Again, not because you’re a woman – because I do that for everybody. I will not say anything to you when I do this, but if we make eye contact I might smile. That’s it. Now, if you (or the original poster) want to impute chauvinistic tendencies to me because of this, that’s your prerogative. You’d be wrong, and it would apparently make you both bitter, so you’d be bitter for the wrong reason, but that’s not my problem. And if you kick me in the 'nads, I will not retaliate. (I doubt that I’d be able to at that point, anyway.) I don’t like violence, and avoid it whenever possible – especially against ladies and children. (There’s that pesky chivalrous streak again, dammit.) But you should know that if my wife is with me, and you kick me, she will beat the holy living shit out of you. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2000, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chivalry-sucks/34649/97 "2000-09-27T22:01:26Z")
. . . but what about those of us menfolk who _do_ think women should receive special treatment? Like Louis up there, and andros? ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2000, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chivalry-sucks/34649/98 "2000-09-27T22:29:01Z")
voguevixen, You posted ‘I’m only reiterating what I said to begin with, and I believe the OP was saying as well. No one’s saying “don’t HOLD the door.” Anyone who’s arguing that needs to go back and re-read’. So I went back. Earlier you said 'Ok, how can I spell this out so you can understand it… If any of you ever open a door for me unasked, I’ll kick you in the nads. I don’t care if you’re just trying to be nice, I didn’t ask for it. If you’re a complete stranger, you are under absolutely NO OBLIGATION to be nice. Let it slam in my face, see if I care. HOWEVER, if you ask “can I get the door for you?” I will either reply “Yes, thank you” or “No thanks, I got it.” It’s the ASSUMING someone needs assistance that’s so offensive’. So I have to ask you if you want the door opened, otherwise I offend you, and you’ll attack me. This was SPELT OUT by you. No wonder people called you on it… ---
**Author:** ![Jodi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7feea3/32.png) [@Jodi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jodi)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2000, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chivalry-sucks/34649/99 "2000-09-27T22:38:08Z")
Andros, honey, define “special.” “Special” in the sense of “today’s special” or “special” in the sense of “Special Olympics” or what? ---
**Author:** ![Enderw24](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ba9def/32.png) [@Enderw24](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enderw24)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2000, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chivalry-sucks/34649/100 "2000-09-27T22:39:32Z")
LaurAnge I’ve got a few comments/questions. Have you ever opened a door for someone else? If you have, what was your motivation for doing so? And again, if you have, how can you belittle others for doing the same thing? And if you haven’t, why not? Since you seem to have no problem with people doing something as long as the behavior is consistent for all humans, why can’t you make it a rule to be kind to others? Is it perhaps because you don’t want others looking at you as a female trying to assert her equality by doing a “male activity?” Speaking of which, why aren’t you bothered that females aren’t opening doors for people too? Equality can be reached through two means, you know: forcing those above to come down, or raising everyone up to the top. Let’s talk about your friends for a bit. What’s their motivation for opening the door for you? Is it to purely to piss you off? If so, I suppose you can let them have it. Is it because you’re a helpless woman? If so, why are you still with these friends? Or is it because they enjoying being kind, and open the door for everyone? If that’s the case, why are you yelling at them? Maybe it’s about time to surprise your friends by opening the door for them on occasion. They’ll be so shocked, they might not even think to ask what your motivation is. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chivalry-sucks/34649.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chivalry-sucks/34649.md?page=6)