# Chna's overseas assets **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [April 19, 2020, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chnas-overseas-assets/852140 "2020-04-19T20:05:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Mangosteen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Mangosteen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangosteen)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2020, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chnas-overseas-assets/852140/1 "2020-04-19T20:05:49Z")
Some people are calling for the seizure of China’s assets in the US, Europe and Australia to pay for the damages caused by the COVID Virus. How many Billion dollars in assets do they have abroad and how liquid are they? Sounds like a good way to start WWIII, but this GQ. ---
**Author:** ![Schnitte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/schnitte/32/9033_2.png) [@Schnitte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Schnitte)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2020, 12:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chnas-overseas-assets/852140/2 "2020-04-21T12:26:04Z")
That depends a lot on whether you count only government-owned assets, or also assets owned by private Chinese nationals or companies abroad (even though I admit that, given the highly dirigistic nature of Chinas economy, the distinction is not as clear-cut in this case as it would be in others.) A good starting point would be the holdings of US treasury bonds and other government debentures by the Chinese central bank (the People’s Bank of China). They stem from the Chinese central bank buying up U.S. dollars (which were earned through China’s trade surplus with the U.S.) in order to avoid an appreciation of the renminbi against the dollar. These holdings are massive and consistently exceed $1tn ([source](https://www.thebalance.com/u-s-debt-to-china-how-much-does-it-own-3306355)). ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2020, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chnas-overseas-assets/852140/3 "2020-04-21T14:58:44Z")
Who is calling for this? Got an example? I haven’t heard or read anything even hinting at this. It would be very helpful to know who these ‘people’ are. ---
**Author:** ![Mangosteen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Mangosteen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangosteen)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2020, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chnas-overseas-assets/852140/4 "2020-04-22T02:48:04Z")
> **[Opinion | China should be legally liable for the pandemic damage it has done](https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2020/04/09/china-should-be-legally-liable-pandemic-damage-it-has-done/)** > > The Chinese communist regime lied to the world about the danger of the coronavirus. > **[Lawsuit: China Hid Virus Information, Should Pay Billions](https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/nevada/articles/2020-03-24/lawsuit-china-hid-virus-information-should-pay-billions)** > > A lawyer who represented victims of the Las Vegas shooting massacre has filed a federal lawsuit over the coronavirus, seeking class-action damages from China for 32 million U.S. small businesses. > **[China Should Pay a Financial Cost For Its Coronavirus Lies](https://nationalinterest.org/feature/china-should-pay-financial-cost-its-coronavirus-lies-141267)** > > China committed a crime against the world, and somehow it must pay.  > **[How to Make China Pay | National Review](https://www.nationalreview.com/2020/04/how-to-make-china-pay/)** > > Instead of focusing on international law, the U.S. should thus protect its national interests by opting for the self-help mechanism. > **[China Is Legally Responsible for COVID-19 Damage and Claims Could Be in the...](https://warontherocks.com/2020/03/china-is-legally-responsible-for-covid-19-damage-and-claims-could-be-in-the-trillions/)** > > As the novel coronavirus incubated in Wuhan from mid-December to mid-January, the Chinese state made evidently intentional misrepresentations to its ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2020, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chnas-overseas-assets/852140/5 "2020-04-22T03:12:54Z")
You think the Chinese won’t retaliate in spades? ---
**Author:** ![dolphinboy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dolphinboy/32/330_2.png) [@dolphinboy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dolphinboy)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2020, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chnas-overseas-assets/852140/6 "2020-04-22T04:22:14Z")
Given how dependent the US is on Chinese products, I don’t see how this could play out to anyone’s advantage. If the US could prove that China released this virus to damage us that would be one thing, but China has also paid a huge price in lost productivity and GDP. However, I think there may be a case for China not disclosing what was happening when it was happening, but that’s something for the WHO to look into and report to the world. ---
**Author:** ![China\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2020, 7:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chnas-overseas-assets/852140/7 "2020-04-22T07:04:41Z")
> [@dolphinboy](#): > > Given how dependent the US is on Chinese products, I don’t see how this could play out to anyone’s advantage. If the US could prove that China released this virus to damage us that would be one thing, but China has also paid a huge price in lost productivity and GDP. However, I think there may be a case for China not disclosing what was happening when it was happening, but that’s something for the WHO to look into and report to the world. Riiiiight, China unleashed a bio weapon on it’s own population with the understanding that a) Chinese can lock down better than spoiled Westerners, b) deaths while bad will be nothing vs spoiled Westerners, c) china will then isolate as the rest of the world burns out the virus, and d) somehow Chinese manufacturing will stand up and profit from all the shriveled demand from the rest of the world in a pandemic. Yep, totally logical game plan. ---
**Author:** ![Schnitte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/schnitte/32/9033_2.png) [@Schnitte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Schnitte)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2020, 8:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chnas-overseas-assets/852140/8 "2020-04-22T08:08:38Z")
Maybe we can return to the factual question of how much in assets China has overseas, rather than the political debate as to whether demands to seize them make sense or not? ---
**Author:** ![Schnitte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/schnitte/32/9033_2.png) [@Schnitte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Schnitte)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2020, 8:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chnas-overseas-assets/852140/9 "2020-04-22T08:09:42Z")
Maybe we can return to the factual question of how much in assets China has overseas, rather than the political debate as to whether demands to seize them make sense or not? ---
**Author:** ![blue\_infinity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blue_infinity/32/2817_2.png) [@blue\_infinity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blue_infinity)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2020, 8:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chnas-overseas-assets/852140/10 "2020-04-22T08:53:15Z")
According to [this page](https://www.us-china-investment.com/us-china-foreign-direct-investments/data) China has invested $148 billion in the US, while the US has invested $276 billion in China. So confiscating Chinese assets would probably not turn out so well for the US. ---
**Author:** ![Schnitte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/schnitte/32/9033_2.png) [@Schnitte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Schnitte)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2020, 9:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chnas-overseas-assets/852140/11 "2020-04-22T09:40:56Z")
> [@blue\_infinity](#): > > According to [this page](https://www.us-china-investment.com/us-china-foreign-direct-investments/data) China has invested $148 billion in the US, while the US has invested $276 billion in China. > > So confiscating Chinese assets would probably not turn out so well for the US. That covers only FDI, though, i.e., things such as subsidiaries or facilities owned by a company from one state in the territory of the other. It ignores financial assets, such as the holdings of government securities. As noted in my earlier post, China’s holdings of U.S. treasury bonds far exceed the amount of Chinese FDI in the United States - not least because there is often political opposition arising when a Chinese firm attempts to take over an American one, whereas Chinese purchases of treasury bonds are very much desired on the American side. ---
**Author:** ![blue\_infinity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blue_infinity/32/2817_2.png) [@blue\_infinity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blue_infinity)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2020, 10:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chnas-overseas-assets/852140/12 "2020-04-22T10:14:45Z")
Those US treasury bonds are not Chinese assets the US can seize. They are US debts which China can dump on the market. There’s no leverage there. ---
**Author:** ![Schnitte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/schnitte/32/9033_2.png) [@Schnitte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Schnitte)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2020, 11:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chnas-overseas-assets/852140/13 "2020-04-22T11:36:18Z")
> [@blue\_infinity](#): > > Those US treasury bonds are not Chinese assets the US can seize. Of course they are. The bonds don’t exist as physical certificates on paper, stored somewhere in a vault in China; they only exist in a non-corporeal form as book entries in accounts held with Federal Reserve Banks ([link](https://www.newyorkfed.org/aboutthefed/fedpoint/fed05.html)). If the United States adopted a law cancelling bonds held on account of Chinese holders, or transferring these holdings to someone else, that would be it. ---
**Author:** ![blue\_infinity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blue_infinity/32/2817_2.png) [@blue\_infinity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blue_infinity)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2020, 11:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chnas-overseas-assets/852140/14 "2020-04-22T11:54:14Z")
So you want the US to default on its bonds? Well if there’s one reason for every other country to dump the dollar as the world’s reserve currency - that would be it. ---
**Author:** ![Schnitte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/schnitte/32/9033_2.png) [@Schnitte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Schnitte)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2020, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chnas-overseas-assets/852140/15 "2020-04-22T12:42:33Z")
> [@blue\_infinity](#): > > So you want the US to default on its bonds? Well if there’s one reason for every other country to dump the dollar as the world’s reserve currency - that would be it. I don’t want anyone to do anything; I’m merely responding to the factual question whether there are Chinese assets which are within the reach of U.S. authorities for seizing. The treasury bonds held by the Chinese central bank are such assets. Such seizure would not necessarily amount to an event of default. If A owes money to B, and B obtains a court ruling against A ordering payment, and B now has bailiffs seize financial claims that A has against some debtor, then this seizing would not be a default of A’s debtor. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2020, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chnas-overseas-assets/852140/16 "2020-04-22T15:57:31Z")
China has loaned a lot of money, often with collateral, to a number of countries. That’s part of the balance sheet. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2020, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chnas-overseas-assets/852140/17 "2020-04-22T16:13:05Z")
If you include investments by Chinese state enterprises, there is probably another trillion of assets owned in the US and elsewhere in the west. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2020, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chnas-overseas-assets/852140/18 "2020-04-22T16:13:51Z")
So the OP thinks government figures should be held legally liable if they lied and downplayed the dangers of the disease? ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2020, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chnas-overseas-assets/852140/19 "2020-04-22T16:15:58Z")
Again, there is a factual question that can be answered without getting into whether it’s a good idea or whether it’s legally valid. ---
**Author:** ![Mangosteen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Mangosteen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangosteen)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2020, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chnas-overseas-assets/852140/20 "2020-04-22T18:21:57Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > So the OP thinks government figures should be held legally liable if they lied and downplayed the dangers of the disease? OP didn’t “think” anything. OP asked a question. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chnas-overseas-assets/852140.md?page=2)