# Choking to death? I can't help you unless you consent or pass out **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [December 12, 2022, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/choking-to-death-i-cant-help-you-unless-you-consent-or-pass-out/976402 "2022-12-12T17:32:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2022, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/choking-to-death-i-cant-help-you-unless-you-consent-or-pass-out/976402/1 "2022-12-12T17:32:40Z")
You know how when someone is choking they are going to die unless you do something AND they cannot speak as in give consent? The new standard from the Red Cross is you must get consent if hey are conscious. You don’t believe me? > **[ConsciousChokingPoster\_EN.pdf](https://www.redcross.org/content/dam/redcross/atg/PDF_s/ConsciousChokingPoster_EN.pdf)** > > 1075.32 KB What is worrisome is that once someone passes out, implicit consent is given. That sound like the Cosby Legal Theory of Lifesaving. Is this wokeness run amok or entirely appropriate? If you can say, “Don’t Heimlich me!” then you are not choking anyways. If you are choking for real then you are probably in panic mode and cannot think Nod for yes, Shake for no so will you really deny consent? And so you know, you’re going to get Heimliched once you are closer to death anyways. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2022, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/choking-to-death-i-cant-help-you-unless-you-consent-or-pass-out/976402/2 "2022-12-12T17:45:18Z")
That poster is from 2011. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2022, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/choking-to-death-i-cant-help-you-unless-you-consent-or-pass-out/976402/3 "2022-12-12T17:46:27Z")
People think that anyone experiencing choking should get the Heimlich, but that’s wrong. If they are getting any air through, they will do much better by themselves than you trying the Heimlich. While conscious they are still in charge of their bodies. If they become unconscious the burden shifts. It’s not wokeness, it’s proper medical care and has been the rule for a long time. Consent can be non-verbal, there’s nothing in that poster that would indicate otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![Fiveroptic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiveroptic/32/8257_2.png) [@Fiveroptic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiveroptic)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2022, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/choking-to-death-i-cant-help-you-unless-you-consent-or-pass-out/976402/4 "2022-12-12T17:46:33Z")
How is it “woke” to ask someone if they need help before putting your hands on them? My wife has an issue with her esophagus where sometimes she can’t swallow, and while one would call it “choking,” she’s able to breath. I’ve asked, “Are you choking? Do you need the Heimlich?” and she shakes her head because it hurts to try to speak. But the Heimlich maneuver won’t help dislodge the food and may actually cause harm. Stop trying to find offense in everything, FFS. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2022, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/choking-to-death-i-cant-help-you-unless-you-consent-or-pass-out/976402/5 "2022-12-12T17:47:04Z")
I just found out about it; I got my certification 20 years ago so not as new as I thought. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2022, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/choking-to-death-i-cant-help-you-unless-you-consent-or-pass-out/976402/6 "2022-12-12T17:50:02Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > I just found out about it How did you find out? Was it some recreationally outraged MAGA snowflake on Facebook railing against “wokeness” into the echo-void where everyone just agrees with the poster without looking at the copyright stamp on the linked image? ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2022, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/choking-to-death-i-cant-help-you-unless-you-consent-or-pass-out/976402/7 "2022-12-12T17:50:23Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > I got my certification 20 years ago so not as new as I thought. I got my certification 40 years ago, and we were told this back then. All medical care involves getting consent when a patient is conscious and competent. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2022, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/choking-to-death-i-cant-help-you-unless-you-consent-or-pass-out/976402/8 "2022-12-12T17:54:18Z")
Coincidentally, I’m watching “Emergency!” right now; this episode from '75 features a suicide-by-overdose and the paramedics can’t legally touch her until she passes out. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2022, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/choking-to-death-i-cant-help-you-unless-you-consent-or-pass-out/976402/9 "2022-12-12T17:57:55Z")
No, it was watching someone else doing a Red Cross training. Maybe the issue I have with it was the way it was presented. The person starts choking and doesn’t panic but gives the international symbol for choking. The other person then assumes they are in fact choking and give the back pats (oh and pushes her shoulder forward to bend her over **without** consent) and when that doesn’t work says something like, “I am trained to perform the Heimlich. Do I have your consent to perform the Heimlich on you?” Then without the choking victim saying yes or no or nodding or shaking her head, the person gets behind her and performs the Heimlich anyways. My recreational outrage was more of the “Jesus Christ! Just save her life already!” ---
**Author:** ![purplehorseshoe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/purplehorseshoe/32/2996_2.png) [@purplehorseshoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/purplehorseshoe)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2022, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/choking-to-death-i-cant-help-you-unless-you-consent-or-pass-out/976402/10 "2022-12-12T18:06:57Z")
Did the training you were witnessing (and not participating in?) have anything to do with learning about consent? ---
**Author:** ![purplehorseshoe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/purplehorseshoe/32/2996_2.png) [@purplehorseshoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/purplehorseshoe)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2022, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/choking-to-death-i-cant-help-you-unless-you-consent-or-pass-out/976402/11 "2022-12-12T18:10:44Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > You know how when someone is choking they are going to die unless you do something AND they cannot speak as in give consent? This is not a true statement. Someone choking is not necessarily GONNA DIE OMG!!1! and I can certainly waive consent without speaking (waving someone away, or even motioning to call 911 rather than touching me, etc.) so I do not agree with the premise of the O.P. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2022, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/choking-to-death-i-cant-help-you-unless-you-consent-or-pass-out/976402/12 "2022-12-12T18:23:08Z")
No, it was the First Aid training. The consent was more of, “Get consent before applying the Heimlich”. Now do the Heimlich. ---
**Author:** ![jnglmassiv](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f07891/32.png) [@jnglmassiv](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jnglmassiv)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2022, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/choking-to-death-i-cant-help-you-unless-you-consent-or-pass-out/976402/13 "2022-12-12T18:26:06Z")
I took the EMT-B class and Illinois exam in about 2006. My license now lapsed but I pretty clearly remember what were were told to do if we encountered someone that appeared to be choking. “Can you breathe?” _shakes head no_ “Do you want help?” _nods head yes_ ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2022, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/choking-to-death-i-cant-help-you-unless-you-consent-or-pass-out/976402/14 "2022-12-12T18:29:09Z")
And I will point out that I asked an honest question in the OP > Is this wokeness run amok or entirely appropriate? Considering in my First Aid certification there was never discussion of consent but rather “Save their damn life!” I honestly thought this was a new thing. I get now that it has always been around (and I’m glad now I never had to give a Heimlich cuz I wouldn’t have asked." And like I said, the video I saw made so much about the set up to giving the Heimlich all I could think of was “She’d be dead by now if she were really choking.” So let me ask this then. You ask for consent to give the Heimlich. The person cannot speak because it is real choking and they are panicking and not giving any indication of yes or no. Do you give the Heimlich or wait until they pass out? ---
**Author:** ![Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eyebrows_0f_doom/32/3119_2.png) [@Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eyebrows_0f_Doom)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2022, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/choking-to-death-i-cant-help-you-unless-you-consent-or-pass-out/976402/15 "2022-12-12T18:31:12Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > And I will point out that I asked an honest question in the OP And considering this poster was from before the concept of “wokeness” had reached mainstream culture, asking if this is “wokeness run amok” is not an honest question. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2022, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/choking-to-death-i-cant-help-you-unless-you-consent-or-pass-out/976402/16 "2022-12-12T18:32:07Z")
> [@jnglmassiv](#): > > I pretty clearly remember what were were told to do if we encountered someone that appeared to be choking. My training must have really sucked then. We were told to ask, “Are you choking?” to get them to speak (not choking) and if they couldn’t speak then assume choking. And before anyone asks, yes it was a (I guess) Red Cross instructor the school hired for us coaches. I haven’t had to recertified since then but maybe I should. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2022, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/choking-to-death-i-cant-help-you-unless-you-consent-or-pass-out/976402/17 "2022-12-12T18:33:58Z")
> [@Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](#): > > And considering this poster was from before the concept of “wokeness” had reached mainstream culture, asking if this is “wokeness run amok” is not an honest question. I had not seen this poster before I found it online to show that yes it is Red Cross policy. But thank you for assuming I had seen it. Anything else I’ve seen before that I should know about? ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2022, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/choking-to-death-i-cant-help-you-unless-you-consent-or-pass-out/976402/18 "2022-12-12T18:37:20Z")
Or maybe you just don’t remember every detail from 20 years ago - I was last trained maybe three years ago and I couldn’t actually say if consent was mentioned. I assume it was because I knew before reading this thread that you are supposed to get consent, but I couldn’t actually say if it was mentioned at my training three years ago or the one five years ago or if I read it somewhere completely unconnected to any training ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2022, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/choking-to-death-i-cant-help-you-unless-you-consent-or-pass-out/976402/19 "2022-12-12T18:38:45Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > And like I said, the video I saw made so much about the set up to giving the Heimlich all I could think of was “She’d be dead by now if she were really choking.” Could it _possibly_ be that they slowed down the steps to make sure you would remember them? ---
**Author:** ![Chingon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chingon/32/17645_2.png) [@Chingon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chingon)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2022, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/choking-to-death-i-cant-help-you-unless-you-consent-or-pass-out/976402/20 "2022-12-12T18:39:45Z")
Guys, the important thing to get out of this is that wokeness has run so amok that is going back in time to change informational posters. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/choking-to-death-i-cant-help-you-unless-you-consent-or-pass-out/976402.md?page=2)