Chomsky: Is this man I deeply respect a bigot and a sympathizer for certain acts of genocide?

The bolded portion is mine, the rest the cited article in full. I’ll go ahead and just do actual work rebutting and substantiating my position instead of simply asserting and citing websites dedicated to attacking Chomsky or anyone who describes a pet issue in a way they dislike. (I’m sure they exist but I think you’ll have a hard time finding such a media outlet on any subject or with any so narrowly defined target that is reliable in their facts or objective whatsoever. These remind me of anti-gay websites or anti-bush websites or pro-Anorexia websites. It’s hard to be such a diehard as to create a media group soley for the purpose of that one subject and also not be taking massive liberties with the available evidence)
In 1985, Christopher Hitchens wrote a lengthy essay (“The Chorus and the Cassandra”) defending Noam Chomsky against several accusations. One of the criticisms leveled against Chomsky was the charge that he had supported the Khmer Rouge.

The question of whether or not it is fair to say that Chomsky “supported” the Khmer Rouge is discussed in detail elsewhere on this site, in the article entitled Averaging Wrong Answers: Noam Chomsky and the Cambodia Controversy.

Those who admire Chomsky may find Hitchen’s defense of the Professor very comforting. Those who lack the patience to compare Chomsky’s comments to the factual record will likely believe that Hitchens’ article exonerates Chomsky.

**Simply assertions, I felt no need to have Chomsky exonerated as nothing has been proven about his sympathy for genocide. Even the critics that claim this leave themselves the outs by complaining that Chomsky is never specific and only infers his support by questioning reports of the number of deaths and conditions. This is the crux of their argument, that Chomsky questions reports/ characterizes them as not being consistent or reliable. This is not a very strong argument. It assumes he does this knowingly which I don’t believe whatsoever and also sumes those reports were good reports, or that he preferentially offers other reports as good that should not be. An argument never really gets to why these reports should be or shouldn’t be trusted. It’sjust a bit of hand wringing in anger about reports that favor the preferred conclusions vs unfavored conclusions. For this argument to stick you have to in a very detailed way look at all the cites he gives for and against and the spcific time and context in which he does it. Then on top of that you have to make some very strong assumptions about someone who never ever explicitly endorsed any act of non-defensive violence anywhere.

chomsky.info : The Noam Chomsky Website (chorus and the cassandra link)**

The reality, however, is that Hitchens’ article merely contains more of the errors and misrepresentations that characterize Chomsky’s original writings.

The first third of Hitchens’ essay is a long-winded introduction, in which he rambles on about the Professor’s eminence, tossing in sundry references to Oxford University, razor blades, Dr. John Arbuthnot’s 1714 “Treatise on the Art of Political Lying,” airplane propellers, eschewed principles, and, of course, Ryszard Kapuscinski. Regrettably, I’ve never heard of Ryszard Kapuscinski, but I am sure is equal in esteem to Dr. Arbuthnot, of whom I’ve also never heard.

Since I clearly lack the Oxfordian breadth of Mr. Hitchens, I will confine my comments to the subject of Cambodia… for in spite of my lack of education, I have managed to learn a few things about Southeast Asia.

This guy doesn’t exactly give himself a ringing endorsement here. “I don’t know much, but here’s something I have an opinion on and by the way, if I haven’t heard of someone they’re a big stupid-head.” + more assertions without evidence.

Cambodia, it seems, is not really something Hitchens has ever bothered to study. How else can we explain the fact that he begins his defense of Chomsky with a falsehood? He notes that Chomsky was criticized for suggesting, in 1972, that a Khmer Rouge victory might lead to “a new era of economic development and social justice.” This comment, according to Hitchens, appeared in “Dr. Malcolm Caldwell’s collection of interviews with Prince Norodom Sihanouk.” Hitchens clearly never bothered to read the book: it is not a collection of interviews with Sihanouk, but a history of events leading to the Cambodian civil war, written by an avowed Communist. By misrepresenting the content of the book, Hitchens imbues Chomsky’s preface with an aura of apolitical neutrality.

**I’m not defending Hitchen’s. I haven’t read that much of his stuff. If he mischaracterizes something here it’s really not relevant. In fact this whole article is fairly irrlevant fo how derivative it is for evidence. However I am demanded to be thorough in my rebuttals even if people in the forum are only citing chomsky attack mills of strange and extreme quality. In any case if you look at the charges of Chomsky criticizing US propaganda being the basis of his bias that somehow becomes him endorsing genocide (which is absurd), its all based on him not believing certain sources of information, which last time I checked is not the same as endorsing the party impuned by that information.

It’s funny how this article criticizes Hitchens about context when it lifts these out of context rebuttals out of ource material that makes it look laughable. But then theyre probably correct in assuming no one will actually read Hitchen’s article:

“to say that Chomsky hailed the advent of the Khmer Rouge as “a new era of economic development and social justice.” The Khmer Rouge took power in 1975. In 1972, Chomsky wrote an introduction to Dr. Malcolm Caldwell’s collection of interviews with Prince Norodom Sihanouk. In this introduction, he expressed not the prediction but the pious hope that Sihanouk and his supporters might preserve Cambodia for “a new era of economic development and social justice.” You could say that this was naive of Chomsky, who did not predict the 1973 carpet-bombing campaign or the resultant rise of a primitive, chauvinist guerrilla movement.”

I heard once that blueberries cure cancer, I think that’s an exageration promoted by the blueberry industry, doesn’t mean I don’t like blueberries or think they’re not good for you (minus pesticides). The leap here is the reaction of someone wh can’t hadle any downtalk of media that promotes a US war. It’s the reaction of a non-serious person with a loyalist agenda, who is not all that interested in objectivity.**

To be continued, no not all tonight, again, I have a life and my responses require actual work to produce.

That may, quite possibly, be the worst formatting.
Ever.

Yeah, like we haven’t heard that excuse before.

It’s worth noting that in his long-winded, rather poorly formatted “response” Untoward didn’t even bother addressing anyone else’s criticisms of Chomsky.

It’s also worth noting that he claims people are linking to nothing but anti-Chomsky websites, but ignores that what people were linking to was The Nation essay that Chomsky actually authored with Hermann in which he claimed the Cambodian Holocaust was a hoax.

Chomsky of course has been famous for playing fast and loose with the truth for decades and has been roundly criticized by numerous leftists and liberals for doing so. Prominent examples are Arthur Schlessinger Jr., caught Chomsky manufacturing quotes which he falsely attributed to Harry Truman, Christopher Hitchens, Eric Alterman, and Matthew Yglesias.

He was probably in a rush because he “has a life.”

Not to worry, he has a life, unlike everyone else here so he won’t be back for a while. Why, does not the OP (post, not poster) bespeak a man with scarcely a free second on his hands? I’m sure that’s why he insisted I provide him with Chomsky’s original writing despite having already provided it for him twice. Those with busy lives such as his have not the time to read what they are replying to. I mean nobody with a life would create such an epic, nay, tl;dr OP like this:

I’m guessing the tl;dr part was supposed to cover repeating the names of the same universities over and over and over again. And it’s tl;dr, why are you still reading this part?

**"FinnAgain

That may, quite possibly, be the worst formatting.
Ever."**

irrelevant post

**
Jackmannii

Yeah, like we haven’t heard that excuse before.**

irrelevant post

**
Ibn Warraq-

It’s worth noting that in his long-winded, rather poorly formatted “response” Untoward didn’t even bother addressing anyone else’s criticisms of Chomsky.

It’s also worth noting that he claims people are linking to nothing but anti-Chomsky websites, but ignores that what people were linking to was The Nation essay that Chomsky actually authored with Hermann in which he claimed the Cambodian Holocaust was a hoax.

Chomsky of course has been famous for playing fast and loose with the truth for decades and has been roundly criticized by numerous leftists and liberals for doing so. Prominent examples are Arthur Schlessinger Jr., caught Chomsky manufacturing quotes which he falsely attributed to Harry Truman, Christopher Hitchens, Eric Alterman, and Matthew Yglesias.**

Figured you couldn’t stay away long, I just noticed a couple of original source or not nutjob articles (the nation) were cited, ill get to those after this Hitchens one. I’ll expect cites for your other assertions or assume you are retracting them. I have been in the process of responding in full to the first one, unlike other people I don’t believe in just responding to the bits I feel like out of context.
**
He was probably in a rush because he “has a life.”**

thanks for the irrelevant bit at the end, youre always good for that.

**Dissonance

Not to worry, he has a life, unlike everyone else here so he won’t be back for a while. Why, does not the OP (post, not poster) bespeak a man with scarcely a free second on his hands? I’m sure that’s why he insisted I provide him with Chomsky’s original writing despite having already provided it for him twice. Those with busy lives such as his have not the time to read what they are replying to. I mean nobody with a life would create such an epic, nay, tl;dr OP like this:I’m guessing the tl;dr part was supposed to cover repeating the names of the same universities over and over and over again. And it’s tl;dr, why are you still reading this part?**

Most of your post is also irrelevant, tx anyway, as for the one thing that did deserve a response

For now this guy responds to the Distortions of the Fourth Hand attacks better than I would: (Hint, its about reading Chomsky’s 70’s works for what they actually were)

http://joelswagman.blogspot.com/2011/12/i-yell-at-someone-in-streets-over.html

"It is true that Chomsky has refused to apologize for his media analysis articles written in the 1970s. That is, Chomsky still believes that in specific incidents reporters fabricated or exaggerated information about the Khmer Rouge in the 1970s. And Chomsky still believes that the specific incidents of fabrication he mentioned in “Distortions at Fourth Hand” have not yet been proven false. This is what Chomsky is referring to when he says to the best of his knowledge no errors have been found in his writings.
This may be debatable. In some of the articles linked to above there are some questions raised about the accuracy of some of Chomsky’s sources. (Go and read the articles yourself and make up your own mind.) But this is a separate discussion.

Ms. Greenwood misinterprets this to mean that Chomsky believes that the Khmer Rouge atrocities never took place. And this is plain wrong.

If a prominent intellectual did still believe that no Khmer Rouge atrocities took place, it would be quite something. This is the type of accusation you would think a person would want to double check very carefully before printing it off into fliers and passing it out to random people in the streets.

So what did Chomsky actually say about the Khmer Rouge? Well the best thing to do is not to take either my word or Ms. Greenwood’s word for anything, but to go read the actual articles Chomsky wrote at the time. To a certain extent I would only be adding to the white noise on this controversy by putting in my own opinion instead of simply redirecting people to the original articles.

However, that being said, my own reading of the whole controversy is as follows: when the Khmer Rouge were actually in power, Western journalists were not actually allowed into the country. Therefore Western Media had to rely mostly on second hand accounts and speculation as to what was actually going in the country. Noam Chomsky was critical of what much of the Western Media was reporting, and of their methods of obtaining information. He believed it was popular to exaggerate atrocities in Cambodia as a way to retroactively discredit the anti-war movement, and that at the same time the media was ignoring comparable atrocities going on in East Timor.
When the Vietnamese invaded in 1979 it turned out that the reports had not been exaggerated, and that things had actually been worse than people thought it was. So Chomsky was wrong.
But if you actually read the articles Chomsky wrote at the time, you will not find an endorsement of the Khmer Rouge. Read, for example, “The Cynical Farce that is Cambodia” and you’ll find him acknowledging that things my well be as bad as everyone says they are. Or if you read his much criticized article “Distortions at Fourth Hand,” you’ll find he has a lot of good reasons for being skeptical about the media reports. In the light of history we now know he was wrong, but he was wrong for some of the right reasons.

But don’t listen to me. Go and read his actual articles and form your own opinion."

You don’t have to take my word for it, you don’t have to like me, just read, and try to understand the context. Calling out a source as being full of it doesn’t mean you support the target of their propaganda. Chomsky does not deny in any sense that the Khmer Rouge were monsters. But people that only want to read critics out of context photoshopped nonsense and want to believe that the US was doing the right thing in Cambodia and Vietnam and Laos at the time and would have gotten away with it too if it weren’t for that damn self hating jew and the hippies ya you’re going to keep living in your bubble.

Good grief, UP! Learn how to quote posts, will you? 'Tain’t that hard, now. Oh, and you just might want to indicate what part of the stuff you’ve posted in response to the posts you’re apparently quoting happens to be from the link you provided and what part is your own writing.

its not that hard to read, previous posters in bold, mine in reg, then theres a quotation mark at the beg of the quote and one at the end…

Okay. So you expect the rest of the board to change to suit you? I’ll keep that in mind. :rolleyes:

Good god man, you still haven’t even read Chomsky’s original article. I linked it for you three times. I’m fully familiar with that utter piece of garbage he wrote in 1977; if you haven’t been keeping up I already told you I’ve read it in the past and it made me fairly ill to have to go through it again for you. And you still haven’t even read it.

He’s been fruitlessly looking through those sources for 5 days now and has a life unlike anyone else. How dare you not expect the board to change to suit him!

This is in response to Bpelta’s cite that Chomsky misquoted Eric Alterman since you know Alterman says he did.

thats the post in full, course theres a big gaping hole in it (As usual). Alterman quotes Chomsky out of context in order to claim he’s quoting him out of context.

The bolded portion is what is out of context. Heres what Chomsky actually wrote:

Chomsky is quoting Alterman’s description of other people’s reaction’s/motivations. He is not implying that this is Alterman’s view in any way. And yet Alterman throws a hissy fit and claims that Chomsky didn’t quote hi next irrelevant bit where he professes his disdain for the death penalty ect ect. (you can see it in my quote of his writing obviously).

Why does Alterman post this embarrassing bit of nonsense? Is he just a blinded narcissist that ignores words thinking that if Chomsky mentions his name it must be all about him? Or does he hate Chomsky to begin with and therefore can’t even read what is written to understand it has nothing to do with what he ends up claiming it is.

Really pathetic, and funny.

I have read it, I just don’t see the leprechauns in it like you do, respond to my rebuttal that I already posted or I will simply ignore you from now on.

Since you haven’t rebutted his arguments there’s no “rebuttal” for him to address.

Most of your posts have simply been long-winded cut and paste jobs of other peoples arguments which don’t even address the criticisms people have raised about Chomsky.

That said, since you have already strenuously argued that Chomsky wasn’t an apologist for the notorious Holocaust Denier Robert Faurisson when insisted that Faurisson wasn’t an anti-Semite but merely “a relatively apolitical liberal”, wrote the foreword to Faurisson’s book and declared “I see no anti-Semitic implications in denial of the gas chambers or even denial of the Holocaust” I’m not sure what arguments could convince you that you’re wrong about Chomsky.

And with nearly 24 hours to find the obvious I can only conclude that nothing I write is being read with any attention(or that those reading are lacking in some fundamental human capacities). I have done posters the courtesy of reading their cites and responding with critique, rebuttal and more cites, obviously including the issues you’re whining about. No one has done the same. And so I conclude that corresponding with this room of trehalose-minded perfunction is about as useful to me as debating the president’s birth certificate with a true believer.

Thank you for the education. It’s useful to be reminded that forums such as these are only for assertion of reinforcement of already held beliefs. Dn’t worry, as long as you continue to avoid challenging information you will not suffer the discomfort of critical thought.

tomndebb already cautioned you against this kind of behavior. Since you are now directly insulting other posters, I’m giving you an official warning. Don’t do this again.

I would apologize except I would hope that moderators in these forums would recognize that in a forum called “Great Debates” that those who continue to post in the forums without actually participating in anything resembling debate are acting in bad faith to the entire premise of the page. I’m sorry that I am less eloquent than others or unable to follow the letter of the rules while molesting the spirit of them. I hadn’t planned to continue in this thread in any case as I’ve already explained.

Your dismissal and hand-waving away of any criticism of Chomsky is an excellent demonstration of this principle. You’ve already made up your mind.

This is my opinion of Chomsky- he’s an extremely intelligent man who has trouble getting over some extremely strong biases, and on certain topics his opinion cannot be relied upon as objective.

Isn’t it at least possible that there’s some truth in that?

That’s a simple way to dismiss someone without actually being of any substance, cites, critique of evidence, these are worth considering, generalizing and imagining why someone might not come to one conclusion or another in the abstract is not. (and yet in my stupidity Ive done it again anyway).

It is possible, but these are opinions based upon one’s interpretations of at least a substantial reading of Chomsky’s writings in context in full, not the out of context frames set up enshrouded in demagoguery that have been linked here. None of them cite Chomsky’s actual work which is easily available online, it is always an attack site or another editorialist with an ax to grind with Chomsky. Which is even enough to respond to, however when I cannot even get anything close to the kind of courtesy I give other posters by reading their cites and responding what is the point? One assertion followed by another, the same cites over and over again which I have already rebutted with no reply. One can debate the merits of my rebuttals, and perhaps win the argument or at least some respect but if every single critic of the man on the board refuses to even attempt it what am I to conclude? Either that they are lazy or have no adequate responses.

http://www.chomsky.info/articles/19801011.htm

Here is the full source where the quotes of Chomsky’s alleged exoneration of Faurisson. If read in full it is clear Chomsky did not care whatsoever what Faurisson was guilty of thinking or not. He says himself he had not read much of his work(elsewhere I found him commenting that he had only read one small treatment of a doctor’s notes that he found boring and irrelevant to antisemitism).

In his other writings before and after this Chomsky had reiterated that the Holocaust was probably the worst crime of the century and that even entering into discussion about the truth of it is shameful. He was a young Zionist in the 40s. What are you going to believe that this guy who says he signed many petitions for academic freedom for people he considered much worse than this guy with mutually exclusive positions is somehow a giant secret nazi sympathizer? That Chomsky who constantly uses the nazis as the standard for evil in argument also dismisses their massacre of the Jews? (in between when he often talked very clearly about the horror of the holocaust many times before and after)

These cases are not difficult for me to understand because I am willing to spend the time to read what is being sourced. All of these vilifications of Chomsky are manufactured because the real things people are angry about with Chomsky cannot be won in argument about those things. Attack the speaker instead of trying to debate him about unions, or the Iraq war, or the Vietnam war, or corporate power, or the media, or Israel, or the IMF or any number of the war crimes the US and it’s allies continually commit. People have lots of reasons for hating Chomsky, but other than the duped they have nothing to do with him supporting Pol Pot or Nazis.

I don’t think most of the critics “hate” Chomsky- or at least I don’t. I think he’s got a lot of valuable things to say. But he’s been wrong before (he was wrong about Khmer Rouge), and he’s shown considerable bias on many issues, and there’s nothing wrong with pointing these things out. I think you’re wrong to dismiss the critics as essentially just bitter about losing arguments- isn’t it possible that some of the criticism is valid?