# Choose between 10,000 random people dying, or 100 innocents you choose. **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [July 6, 2011, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/choose-between-10-000-random-people-dying-or-100-innocents-you-choose/588097 "2011-07-06T21:36:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![One\_And\_Only\_Wanderers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/838e76/32.png) [@One\_And\_Only\_Wanderers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/One_And_Only_Wanderers)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2011, 9:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/choose-between-10-000-random-people-dying-or-100-innocents-you-choose/588097/81 "2011-07-11T09:35:06Z")
I’ve seen a variant of this in David Gemmel’s books. The choice being debated there was should a city kill a single newborn to pacify an invading army, the alternative being the city being sacked and everyone put to the sword. Wish I could remember Druss’ answer. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2011, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/choose-between-10-000-random-people-dying-or-100-innocents-you-choose/588097/82 "2011-07-11T12:55:01Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > I’m speaking about the results of inaction. Some people believe inaction in this kind of situation frees them guilt. You seem to be using “guilt” as a synonym for “The fact of having done wrong” here, as opposed to “Awareness of having done wrong.” But for that to be the case, I’d have to agree it is, actually, a fact, which I don’t. That kind of thinking is for what Nietzsche calls “slave morality”. I subscribe to a different moral code, one where you don’t get to pin the results of your own actions onto others, just because you force them to be a participant in some sick game. My inaction might be a factor if I were a willing participant in Glapsviðr’s game…who _then refused to choose. But central to my objection is that I did not get a choice. I was coerced by Grímnir, I am an unwilling participant, effectively a hostage to his will. As such, any action or inaction_ I have in this matter is _Haptaguð’s_ active choice _and his alone_. So yes, I am free of guilt. You can’t force your slave morality on me, I refuse to accept it. I’m not saying I’m amoral, understand. I have a strong moral code. It just doesn’t buy into the same premises yours does. As to the “responsibility” or “conscience” version of “guilt,” I can assure you, if I told Alföðr to get bent, I wouldn’t feel any worse for it. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2011, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/choose-between-10-000-random-people-dying-or-100-innocents-you-choose/588097/83 "2011-07-11T13:08:09Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > It’s easy. I’d pick the 100 people. They are the only ones I would not be responsible for, because 100 people are going to die either way. Not the same 100 people, though - 100 people you hand-picked, remember. Unless everyone you know by name is in that stadium, you’ve condemned specific people who would not have died at all, rather than 10000 people who would suffer what is, literally, an Act of God. This only works out in a moral sense if you have some sort of calculus in your head that goes “more deaths” ALWAYS \>\> “less deaths”. I don’t. The nature of the deaths matters too. That’d kind of be the heart of it for me. “Deaths by my actions” \>\> “Deaths by my inaction” \>\> “Deaths I had nothing to do with whatsoever” It’s a parallel with how I feel about so-called “collateral damage” in warfare. One civilian death \>\> many soldiers deaths, every time. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2011, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/choose-between-10-000-random-people-dying-or-100-innocents-you-choose/588097/84 "2011-07-11T16:15:11Z")
> [@Bosstone](#): > > Possibly, but for the moment let’s assume Odin’s being a sadistic asshole and wants you to tell him each name of the people you’re willing to kill. That act of looking up each name confers a greater link to each Wang than 10,000 people you don’t know will be killed since Odin’s going to go have his fun without you. Right there, Lo Wang isn’t a statistic, he’s some person you’re telling Odin to kill. > > If Odin accepts “the first 100 Wangs in the Beijing phonebook,” then perhaps that’s enough abstracted distance to avoid guilt. But considering he’s setting up this scenario for his own personal amusement, I really doubt he’s going to let anyone slide the way they think they will. I’ve been assuming that the people dead, regardless of what I choose, will be in the same city and will have to be individually named. I’m answering the question exactly as phrased in the OP, which says: > [@](#): > > For the most part Odin doesn’t care what criteria you use; it can be random names in the phone book as far as he cares. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2011, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/choose-between-10-000-random-people-dying-or-100-innocents-you-choose/588097/85 "2011-07-11T16:21:03Z")
See, _here’s_ where the question becomes interesting for me: Kill the 10,000 in the stadium, or 100 of your friends and family members (or, say, Facebook friends), as enumerated by Odin. There, I would selfishly save my family and friends. When it’s 10,000 random people vs. 100 random people, like I said before, there’s no moral dilemma–for me. None whatsoever. Whether I am unwittingly forced to make a decision that shouldn’t concern me at all, it doesn’t matter. 10,000 random people \> 100 random people. What’s the cost to me? But phrase it the way above, and there’s no way I’d save the people in the stadium. ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2011, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/choose-between-10-000-random-people-dying-or-100-innocents-you-choose/588097/86 "2011-07-11T17:39:04Z")
And that’s where it gets uninteresting for me. Those people are in your monkeysphere; of _course_ you’re going to save them. It would take either a freaking saint or a literal sociopath who’s only concerned with the numbers to sacrifice 100 friends and family for 10,000 strangers. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2011, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/choose-between-10-000-random-people-dying-or-100-innocents-you-choose/588097/87 "2011-07-11T17:41:46Z")
> [@Bosstone](#): > > And that’s where it gets uninteresting for me. Those people are in your monkeysphere; of _course_ you’re going to save them. It would take either a freaking saint or a literal sociopath who’s only concerned with the numbers to sacrifice 100 friends and family for 10,000 strangers. Then in neither case the question is interesting for me, I guess. If saving the 100 people you know is a foregone conclusion (I wasn’t sure it was or wasn’t, which is why it seemed somewhat interesting to me), then the 10,000 outside the monkeysphere (learn a new word every day) vs the 100 outside the monkeysphere is equally as easy a choice. (For me, of course.) ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2011, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/choose-between-10-000-random-people-dying-or-100-innocents-you-choose/588097/88 "2011-07-11T18:06:19Z")
Well, at this point I’m only going to be restating things I’ve already said, and it’s clearly just an issue of personal moralities at this point, so I’m probably going to move on from this thread and just be glad such a hypothetical is unlikely to ever arise. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2011, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/choose-between-10-000-random-people-dying-or-100-innocents-you-choose/588097/89 "2011-07-11T18:20:18Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > You seem to be using “guilt” as a synonym for “The fact of having done wrong” here, as opposed to “Awareness of having done wrong.” But for that to be the case, I’d have to agree it is, actually, a fact, which I don’t. That kind of thinking is for what Nietzsche calls “slave morality”. > > I subscribe to a different moral code, one where you don’t get to pin the results of your own actions onto others, just because you force them to be a participant in some sick game. My inaction might be a factor if I were a willing participant in Glapsviðr’s game…who _then refused to choose. But central to my objection is that I did not get a choice. I was coerced by Grímnir, I am an unwilling participant, effectively a hostage to his will. As such, any action or inaction_ I have in this matter is _Haptaguð’s_ active choice _and his alone_. > > So yes, I am free of guilt. You can’t force your slave morality on me, I refuse to accept it. I’m not saying I’m amoral, understand. I have a strong moral code. It just doesn’t buy into the same premises yours does. > > As to the “responsibility” or “conscience” version of “guilt,” I can assure you, if I told Alföðr to get bent, I wouldn’t feel any worse for it. Of course you’d feel worse. If you refused to play Odin’s game in such a coarse fashion, he’s likely to change gears and do something slow, grisly, painful, and if you’re lucky lethal to you–and, just so nobody gets confused about his motives, kill 10,100 random persons while you’re pleading for death. ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2011, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/choose-between-10-000-random-people-dying-or-100-innocents-you-choose/588097/90 "2011-07-11T18:37:45Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > Of course you’d feel worse. If you refused to play Odin’s game in such a coarse fashion, he’s likely to change gears and do something slow, grisly, painful, and if you’re lucky lethal to you–and, just so nobody gets confused about his motives, kill 10,100 random persons while you’re pleading for death. What a shithead this guy is. “You can take option A or B. Wait, you picked A? You’re supposed to pick B! Fuck you, you little prick!” ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2011, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/choose-between-10-000-random-people-dying-or-100-innocents-you-choose/588097/91 "2011-07-11T19:11:44Z")
> [@Bosstone](#): > > What a shithead this guy is. > > “You can take option A or B. Wait, you picked A? You’re supposed to pick B! Fuck you, you little prick!” Yeah, that’s beyond the scope of the hypothetical in the OP. No fair. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2011, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/choose-between-10-000-random-people-dying-or-100-innocents-you-choose/588097/92 "2011-07-11T19:29:56Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > Of course you’d feel worse. If you refused to play Odin’s game in such a coarse fashion, he’s likely to change gears and do something slow, grisly, painful, and if you’re lucky lethal to you–and, just so nobody gets confused about his motives, kill 10,100 random persons while you’re pleading for death. Hey, my death wasn’t in the hypothetical. Not that it matters. Skollvaldr can do as he likes. I won’t play his game. Same reason I’m a misotheist - I refuse to accept my human design flaw… …you know, the tendency to bend at the knees. Basically, there’s nothing you can say to convince me that I should be in any way responsible for what an all-powerful madman chooses to do. It’s all on him. All. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2011, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/choose-between-10-000-random-people-dying-or-100-innocents-you-choose/588097/93 "2011-07-11T19:43:45Z")
Screw Zapata. Better to live on your knees than die on your feet. ---
**Author:** ![Swallowed\_My\_Cellphone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@Swallowed\_My\_Cellphone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Swallowed_My_Cellphone)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2011, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/choose-between-10-000-random-people-dying-or-100-innocents-you-choose/588097/94 "2011-07-11T19:58:20Z")
Oh, man I’d pick 100 “innocents” easily! The neighbor who puts his green been out the night before so city wildlife spreads his garbage around? :: SMITE :: The guy who walks around only socks whose stinky feet stink up the whole office? :: SMITE :: The co-worker who voted for an unqualified schmuck of a candidate on the grounds that “he was better looking than the other guy”? :: SMITE, RESURRECT, AND SMITE AGAIN :: And then smite her kids to be sure that kind of stupid doesn’t escape via DNA. See? It’s easy. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2011, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/choose-between-10-000-random-people-dying-or-100-innocents-you-choose/588097/95 "2011-07-11T20:54:15Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Screw Zapata. But he had such a cool mustache! > [@](#): > > Better to live on your knees than die on your feet. Spoken like someone who’s never had their feet kicked out from under them. I’ve been unfree, if I didn’t bow meekly to Botha why should I bow meekly to any other tyrant? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2011, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/choose-between-10-000-random-people-dying-or-100-innocents-you-choose/588097/96 "2011-07-11T22:57:53Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Spoken like someone who’s never had their feet kicked out from under them. I’ve been unfree, if I didn’t bow meekly to Botha why should I bow meekly to any other tyrant? Because being alive is a hell of a lot better than being dead. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2011, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/choose-between-10-000-random-people-dying-or-100-innocents-you-choose/588097/97 "2011-07-12T01:51:20Z")
Quoth **Iridescent Orb** : > [@](#): > > This is a variant of the Trolley Problem. In brief, you see a trolley rolling down the tracks about to hit and kill five people. You can throw a switch which will divert it onto another set of tracks where it will hit and kill only one person. Differing moral viewpoints argue for minimizing deaths vs. non-involvement in any deaths. Wait until the front wheels of the trolley are past the switch but not the back wheels, and then throw it. It’ll derail and might injure the folks on board, but probably won’t kill anyone at all. Likewise, I’d talk with Odin to try to find some other entertainment he’d find acceptable. Would he be as appeased by a million video game avatars, perhaps? Or maybe just turn a bunch of random or selected people a weird color-- That’d be pretty funny. If he insists on something bloodier, maybe poke out the left eye of every cow on the planet, or something: That’d certainly have people scratching their heads, and would also be to his own glory. If I’m absolutely forced to choose one of the two options in the OP, though, I’d choose the hundred, and make the selection criterion as random as I could possibly manage. I don’t bear moral responsibility for Odin’s actions, and I can’t bear responsibility for a roll of a die, but I am responsible for any decisions I make myself, even choosing to target drug dealers or whatever. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2011, 5:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/choose-between-10-000-random-people-dying-or-100-innocents-you-choose/588097/98 "2011-07-12T05:38:17Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Because being alive is a hell of a lot better than being dead. Not always, no. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2011, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/choose-between-10-000-random-people-dying-or-100-innocents-you-choose/588097/99 "2011-07-13T14:59:04Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Hey, my death wasn’t in the hypothetical. > > Not that it matters. Skollvaldr can do as he likes. I won’t play his game. Same reason I’m a misotheist - I refuse to accept my human design flaw… > > …you know, the tendency to bend at the knees. > > Basically, there’s nothing you can say to convince me that I should be in any way responsible for what an all-powerful madman chooses to do. It’s all on him. All. Odin isn’t a madman. He’s an Ass. Also, I don’t believe your resolve would stand up under even the worst HUMANS can do to you, much less old Bolverk. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2011, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/choose-between-10-000-random-people-dying-or-100-innocents-you-choose/588097/100 "2011-07-13T19:07:34Z")
Tell him to go a government building in Pyongyang and indulge himself. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/choose-between-10-000-random-people-dying-or-100-innocents-you-choose/588097.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/choose-between-10-000-random-people-dying-or-100-innocents-you-choose/588097.md?page=6)