Christian adoption of Jewish laws

Factual Questions
21

OK, maybe we’d better step back a bit.

According to Orthodox Judaism, the written Torah (the commandments as written in the Pentatuch) was not the only instruction given to Moses at Mount Sinai. An oral explanation of these commandments was given as well. A simple perusal of the commandments should make it clear that the commandments, as written in the Torah, do not offer nearly enough detail on how they are to be observed. Some examples are:

Dueteronomy 6:9 tells us to write these words on the doorposts of our houses and gates. OK, how should they be written? Should they be written directly on the doorposts, or written on a scroll that is attached to the doorposts? Or some other method? Which words? The words of that paragraph? The whole of Dueteronomy? The whole of the Torah? Just that verse?

Leviticus 23:27 tells us that on Yom Kippur we are to “afflict ourselves.” How? Should we stand out in the cold? Fast? Whip ourselves? Avoid sexual relations? In what manner? Should we do so the whole day?

Leviticus 23:24 tells us that Rosh HaShanna is to be “a day of blowing.” OK, blow what? A trumpet? A shofar? And for how long are we to blow? The entire day? Should we set up shifts with blowers to blow the whole day?

Leviticus 23:40 tells us on Succos to take the “fruit of a beautiful tree” and other plants. What are we to do when we take them? How should we take them? Should we steal them from our neighbors? Should we hold them in our hands the entire seven day festival?

As you can see, the written Torah is lacking in detail regarding the commandments. This detail was included in an oral tradition that was passed down from generation to generation.

In later years, the oral tradition was in danger of being forgotten. Because of this, this oral tradition was committed to writing in the Talmud. However, the bulk of the Talmud consists of arguments regarding these details and how the commandments are to be performed. As such, there is no clear “statement from God” as you would expect to find in the Torah. The seven commandments are listed in the Talmud in Sanhedrin and they are as GilaB listed them.

The verse that they are derived from is Genesis 2:16. Now, I know what you are going to say. You’re going to say (after looking up the verse) “Hey, Zev, what are you talking about? That verse deals with the prohibition of eating from the Tree of Knowledge!” And you’d be absolutely correct. Without my copy of Sanhedrin in front of me, I can’t give you the exact breakdown of how the commandments are derived from this verse. Suffice it to say that there is a tradition in Orthodox Judaism that there are no extra words or letters in the written Torah. If there is a word that appears to be superflouous, it is there because something extra can be learned from it. It is from superflouos words/letters in the verse that the seven Noahide commandments are derived.
Zev Steinhardt

22

Scott Dickerson, I sense that you are perhaps a man after my own intellect. One of the things that struck me when I was going to church 2-3 times a week was that there was an awful lot of dogma being put forth that does not bear close biblical study.

For instance, a fiery Hell that is presided over by Satan, where the unsaved go to be tortured for all eternity, is not in the Tanach or the New Testament. The closest thing to Hell that is mentioned is Sheol, and the reference is not clear, since Sheol was the name of a giant garbage pit outside of the wall of Jerusalem. It’s much nicer now, and you can literally “go to Hell and back”, if you want to brave the Palestinian suicide bombers. Nonetheless, that concept is a Christian tradition that’s a centerpiece of a lot of people’s understanding of Jesus and what it means to be Christian.

In the same way, these Noahide laws are not listed as such, but are inferred by the Talmud, which is a collection ancient rabbinic interpretation of the Torah at it applies to various legal matters. With due deference to zev_steinhardt, the authority of the Talmud is one of the key things that the Jewish movements disagree on, so while tradition (read: Orthodox) may hold that the Talmudic interpretations come from Mt. Sinai, not all Jew agree.

But the point is, whether you’re a Jew or a Christian, if you adhere to a strict interpretation of your Bible or Tanach, disregarding any extraneous commentary or tradition, prepare to have assumptions regarding your faith shaken.

Now your question really is, where do these fundamentalists get off trying to tell everybody else what to do. That is an excellent question indeed. That, I believe, gets into issues of psychology.

23

Thanks, everybody, for your heroic efforts.

Here’s what I gather from all this (obviously, not all of you totally agree with one another)–and unless somebody thinks I’ve really misunderstood, I’ll save it to my great big wisdom file from the SDMB.

“It is a longstanding tradition in Judaism that there are 7 basic principles that apply to all mankind in general, namely the 7 Noachide Laws. Though these Laws may have been given by God to Adam and Noah in a concise form, the same authoritative priestly tradition that has elaborated the words of the Tanach with a view to application in daily life has also elaborated these other deliverences. That latter tradition is definitely to be regarded as authoritative by observant Jews; and Judaism maintains that it ought also be so regarded by The Nations. However, the fact that Protestant Christian Fundamentalists also believe that selected parts of the Old Testament, though apparently and sometimes expressly addressed specifically to Jews, apply with equal authority to all mankind–has essentially nothing to do with any particular doctrine involving the Noachide Laws, nor with Talmudic tradition. It’s an independent article of faith with no definite positive textual basis; though thought to be consistent with the notion that the Atonement and Resurection universalized to all mankind what was formerly reserved to the Jews as God’s chosen people.”

Thanks again. My only regret is that no Fundamentalist chose to give something like the “official” reason.

24

Which makes you wonder what Abel was doing with those flocks, btw…

25

Shearing?

Zev Steinhardt

26

I guess fig leaves and animal skins can only last you so long…

27

Just to offer another perspective, it appears to me that there are several issues at work here.

For instance, the OP asked the question, why does one never hear "faithful Christians saying, in effect, “So? That law was not addressed to us.” One big reason, is that Paul didn’t seem to think it was an issue (long Bible quote coming up here):

21For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.
24Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator–who is forever praised. Amen.
26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.
28Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. 29They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.
Romans 1:21-31

Now, you can argue that Paul never said that these things should be illegal, and that is certainly true, but it is very easy to see what he thought of them, and – more importantly – what he says God thinks of them. For many people, that would serve as a bibical injunction against the things mentioned.

Also, you could argue that, since Jesus’ sacrifice absolves believers of having to uphold the Jewish first covenant law, modern rules should not be based on it, or you could argue that, yes, the old law has been superceded but it still served as an indication of God’s standard of ethical conduct. This may have a lot to do with the situation – you notice, for instance, in the U.S. our constitution prohibits any laws enforcing the “Thou shalt have no gods before me” Commandment and we have no major laws prohibiting covetousness. I think Meros’ post addressed this sort of thing in a very cogent manner.
JoltSucker said:

Psychology is certainly one aspect of it; they are people, after all. Offhand, I can’t think of any group of people – fundamentalist, atheist, Republican, Democrat, Libertarian, American, African, capitalist, anarchist, you name it – that doesn’t try to tell others what to do in one area or another.

Another quote from JoltSucker:
For instance, a fiery Hell that is presided over by Satan, where the unsaved go to be tortured for all eternity, is not in the Tanach or the New Testament.

Maybe, maybe not.
In my seach for the above verse, I also found Jude 1:7: In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire. The fiery lake mentioned in the book of Revelation is clearly eternal. Also, in Luke 16:22 - 24 we see:
*22"The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23In hell,[1] where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’ *

I think the garbage pit to which you refer was actually Gehenna; “Sheol” I believe could be translated “the grave.” The existence and nature of hell is something that could be – and has been – debated ad nauseam.

Upon re-reading this post, I offer my apologies for its lack of organizaion, but I’m posting from work and I don’t like to take much time for the SDMB when I should be working.

RR

28

Thanks, RiverRunner.
Guess I’ll wait to see if there are a few more comments after all.