# Christian Beliefs-out of fear, or out of love? Or Guin's theological crisis.. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 23, 2002, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-beliefs-out-of-fear-or-out-of-love-or-guins-theological-crisis/110500 "2002-05-23T16:18:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 12\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![happyheathen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5e925/32.png) [@happyheathen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/happyheathen)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2002, 6:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-beliefs-out-of-fear-or-out-of-love-or-guins-theological-crisis/110500/41 "2002-05-28T06:04:34Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Guinastasia \* > \*\* > Why is there so much HATE in the world? Why can’t we all just get along? Why do we have to kill each other? \*\* Welcome to world as defined by humans. Your questions have been perplexing folks since forever - Kinda ironic that one of the ways people tried to grasp the concept was to create religions, isn’t it? Mark Twain said something about how, if everyone woke up tomorrow being of the same color, religion, language, etc., by noon, they would come up with a new reason for hating each other. Find/make your peace however/wherever you can. will shut up now, before reciting the glurge known as _Desiderata_ ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2002, 10:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-beliefs-out-of-fear-or-out-of-love-or-guins-theological-crisis/110500/42 "2002-05-28T10:19:34Z")
> [@](#): > > Find/make your peace however/wherever you can. This is excellent advice. There is no greater frustration than attempting to live and analyze the lives of others on their behalf. A woman who will not let go of her obsession with the morality of others will find herself in a state of permanent distraction. Release judgment. Find the peace in your own soul. Do not be distracted if some man on a message board likes Nazis. You cannot know him nor why he likes what he likes. Know yourself. Be love. And love him. You will find peace no other way. ---
**Author:** ![Mandarax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@Mandarax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mandarax)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2002, 11:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-beliefs-out-of-fear-or-out-of-love-or-guins-theological-crisis/110500/43 "2002-05-28T11:57:18Z")
I didn’t make the original post, but … > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Guinastasia \* > **And what is "bokonoism or whatever?"** From [The Books of Bokonon:](http://www.cs.uni.edu/%7Ewallingf/personal/bokonon.html): > [@](#): > > All of the true things that I am about to tell you are shameless lies. > > In the beginning, God created the earth, and he looked upon it in His cosmic loneliness. > > And God said, “Let Us make living creatures out of mud, so the mud can see what We have done.” And God created every living creature that now moveth, and one was man. Mud as man alone could speak. God leaned close as mud as man sat up, looked around, and spoke. Man blinked. “What is the purpose of all this?” he asked politely. > > “Everything must have a purpose?” asked God. > > “Certainly,” said man. > > “Then I leave it to you to think of one for all this,” said God. > > And He went away. It’s from [_Cat’s Cradle_](http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/038533348X/qid=1022586856/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_1/103-0987151-8567053) by Kurt Vonnegut, Jr. ---
**Author:** ![Siege](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@Siege](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siege)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2002, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-beliefs-out-of-fear-or-out-of-love-or-guins-theological-crisis/110500/44 "2002-05-29T00:19:29Z")
**Guinastasia** , I’ll be honest. The reason I don’t go out to those boards is because I’m afraid of facing people who will hate me, and I’ve encountered enough hate in this life. I’m female, outspoken, and about as independent as you can get. As I alluded to in a recent Pit thread, I’ve seen too many so-called Christians be cruel to people simply because they’re different. No disrespect meant, but some of the nastiest kids in my school were members in good standing of the local Catholic church, CCD classes and all. I run with heathens and pagans (Hi **Happy**!) because I find them more open-minded than far too many Christians I’ve known. I think what’s behind their way of thinking is a need to prove, to believe that their way of life is the right way, despite what they think the media and pop culture tell them. I have a couple of friends who are former Fundamentalists (Charismatic Catholics at one point, if you can believe it) who told me that people in their church sincerely believed they were oppressed and persecuted. For that matter, looking at some of the drek I see on television, I can see why. The world has changed radically in the past 30 years, and, around here, the manufacturing jobs which provided well for my peers parents and grandparents are going away. People need something to cling to. Also, on this Board, we have a lot of free thinkers. In fact, I’d argue we tend to drive away people who don’t think for themselves. There are, however, a fair number of people who aren’t comfortable thinking for themselves and who just want someone to tell them what to do. I once worked with a young woman who wondered if it was a sin to listen to country music rather than a Christian radio station while driving to work. The idea of questioning what she’d been told, of drawing her own conclusions would have surprised her. Also, I’m afraid, she may not have been capable of it. Faith completely defined her world. Questioning it, even in the interest of seeking out greater knowledge, would have been seen as a threat to all she believed was right and good. To the likes of me, questioning is a good beginning. As for social justice, I think there’s a little bit of “I’ve worked hard for all I have; why won’t you?” This is just my opinion, but it’s an attitude I’m afraid I find surfacing in myself now and then. There is still in America, a good Calvinist streak of “God helps those who help themselves” and material success equals blessedness – just look at those who follow the prayer of Jabez, for openers. CJ ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2002, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-beliefs-out-of-fear-or-out-of-love-or-guins-theological-crisis/110500/45 "2002-05-29T23:01:16Z")
I agree-it’s almost like, anymore, I’m wary of people who call themselves religious. And that’s NOT a good thing. I think the problem is-the nuts are the ones we always see. ---
**Author:** ![Triskadecamus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b19c9b/32.png) [@Triskadecamus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Triskadecamus)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2002, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-beliefs-out-of-fear-or-out-of-love-or-guins-theological-crisis/110500/46 "2002-05-29T23:57:30Z")
A kind and gentle person, living a modest life, and giving support to his community, and love to his neighbors just doesn’t provide much in the way of TV News coverage, does it? Tris ---
**Author:** ![Siege](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@Siege](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siege)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2002, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-beliefs-out-of-fear-or-out-of-love-or-guins-theological-crisis/110500/47 "2002-05-30T01:02:19Z")
Actually, there is one line I’ve always wanted to try on men who rant and rave about how all women should be married and at home rather than being out in the workforce taking jobs from good, Christian men. Guinastasia, if an appropriate occaision arises, please feel free to use it; just let me know what happens. > [@](#): > > Fine. Is that an offer of marriage? CJ ---
**Author:** ![SisterCoyote](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/958977/32.png) [@SisterCoyote](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SisterCoyote)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2002, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-beliefs-out-of-fear-or-out-of-love-or-guins-theological-crisis/110500/48 "2002-05-30T01:49:10Z")
What’s she supposed to do if he says yes? ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2002, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-beliefs-out-of-fear-or-out-of-love-or-guins-theological-crisis/110500/49 "2002-05-30T03:13:57Z")
_shudder_ Run screaming? Seriously, I mean I think one parent needs to be home for the kids-but the idea that any woman working outside the house is against God, merely because of some obscure passage-that’s pretty out there. I mean, women have ALWAYS worked outside the home-going back centuries, you had your tavern wenches, women who worked on farms, as maids, etc. Sheesh. ---
**Author:** ![Homebrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Homebrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Homebrew)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2002, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-beliefs-out-of-fear-or-out-of-love-or-guins-theological-crisis/110500/50 "2002-05-30T03:25:15Z")
I love those tavern wenches! [Jimmy Buffett] _Barmaid bring a pitcher Another round of brew …_ [/Buffett] ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2002, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-beliefs-out-of-fear-or-out-of-love-or-guins-theological-crisis/110500/51 "2002-05-30T04:56:56Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Guinastasia \* > \*\*_shudder_ > > Run screaming? > > Seriously, I mean I think one parent needs to be home for the kids-but the idea that any woman working outside the house is against God, merely because of some obscure passage-that’s pretty out there. I mean, women have ALWAYS worked outside the home-going back centuries, you had your tavern wenches, women who worked on farms, as maids, etc. > > Sheesh. \*\* I could not resist.Could the description of a noble wife in following quote from Proverbs 31 in the bible reflect the busy modern working wife and mother? > [@](#): > > Epilogue: The Wife of Noble Character > 10 [3] A wife of noble character who can find? > She is worth far more than rubies. > 11 Her husband has full confidence in her > and lacks nothing of value. > 12 She brings him good, not harm, > all the days of her life. > 13 She selects wool and flax > and works with eager hands. > 14 She is like the merchant ships, > bringing her food from afar. > 15 She gets up while it is still dark; > she provides food for her family > and portions for her servant girls. > 16 She considers a field and buys it; > out of her earnings she plants a vineyard. > 17 She sets about her work vigorously; > her arms are strong for her tasks. > 18 She sees that her trading is profitable, > and her lamp does not go out at night. > 19 In her hand she holds the distaff > and grasps the spindle with her fingers. > 20 She opens her arms to the poor > and extends her hands to the needy. > 21 When it snows, she has no fear for her household; > for all of them are clothed in scarlet. > 22 She makes coverings for her bed; > she is clothed in fine linen and purple. > 23 Her husband is respected at the city gate, > where he takes his seat among the elders of the land. > 24 She makes linen garments and sells them, > and supplies the merchants with sashes. > 25 She is clothed with strength and dignity; > she can laugh at the days to come. > 26 She speaks with wisdom, > and faithful instruction is on her tongue. > 27 She watches over the affairs of her household > and does not eat the bread of idleness. > 28 Her children arise and call her blessed; > her husband also, and he praises her: > 29 “Many women do noble things, > but you surpass them all.” > 30 Charm is deceptive, and beauty is fleeting; > but a woman who fears the Lord is to be praised. > 31 Give her the reward she has earned, > and let her works bring her praise at the city gate. ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2002, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-beliefs-out-of-fear-or-out-of-love-or-guins-theological-crisis/110500/52 "2002-05-30T05:00:48Z")
—The problem is, like I said-they end up worshipping the Bible itself-not the God behind it.— That’s the problem though: which proper idea of God “behind it”? Surely you do not think that this is a settled question. I like Spong, but I think his arguments along these lines are excessively dismissive of the wide range of legitimate difference in what the Christian “god” is and wants. It’s important not to gain false sense of harmony in this way, because it essentially just tacitly assumes the correctness of your own particular position, while brushing off the convictions of others as mere prejeduces-looking-for-support. No doubt this happens sometimes, but sometimes the converse is true as well. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-beliefs-out-of-fear-or-out-of-love-or-guins-theological-crisis/110500.md?page=2)