# Christian Churches and Sexual Positions
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-churches-and-sexual-positions/511554
**Category:** Factual Questions
**Created:** [September 25, 2009, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-churches-and-sexual-positions/511554 "2009-09-25T18:52:52Z")
**Posts on this page:** 16
**Page:** 3
### Author:  [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)
#### Post date: [September 27, 2009, 10:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-churches-and-sexual-positions/511554/41 "2009-09-27T10:06:51Z")
Is there anyone here who’s actually read _The City of God_? That would be a lot more useful than having read Panatti. Who knows whether Panatti is correctly summarizing _The City of God_?
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### Author:  [@dracoi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dracoi)
#### Post date: [September 27, 2009, 10:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-churches-and-sexual-positions/511554/42 "2009-09-27T10:43:04Z")
> [@Wendell\_Wagner](#):
>
> Where does it say that the whole point of getting married is to control your sexual desire?
Saying “the whole point” might be overstressing it, but it’s basically correct. You might want to read All of 1 Cor 7, since the answer is right before and right after the passage that’s already been quoted and I think it’s important to always check the context of any verse citation.
Verses 7 and 8 say: 8 Now to the unmarried and the widows I say: It is good for them to stay unmarried, as I am. 9 But if they cannot control themselves, they should marry, for it is better to marry than to burn with passion.
Verses 1 and 2 say: 1 Now for the matters you wrote about: It is good for a man not to marry. 2 But since there is so much immorality, each man should have his own wife, and each woman her own husband.
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### Author:  [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)
#### Post date: [September 27, 2009, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-churches-and-sexual-positions/511554/43 "2009-09-27T14:22:26Z")
> [@Wendell\_Wagner](#):
>
> Is there anyone here who’s actually read _The City of God_? That would be a lot more useful than having read Panatti. Who knows whether Panatti is correctly summarizing _The City of God_?
You want to read it? Here’s a translation [http://www.wischik.com/lu/senses/city-of-god.html](http://www.wischik.com/lu/senses/city-of-god.html)
Note “Book XIV. Of the punishment and results of man’s first sin, and of the propagation of man without lust.”
“propagation of man without lust”? Could it be Passionless Procreation?
“What friend of wisdom and holy joys, who, being married, but knowing, as the apostle says, how to possess his vessel in santification and honor, not in the disease of desire, as the Gentiles who know not God, 1 Thessalonians **4:4 would not prefer, if this were possible , to beget children without this lust, so that in this function of begetting offspring the members created for this purpose should not be stimulated by the heat of lust, but should be actuated by his volition, in the same way as his other members serve him for their respective ends?** ”
Again, Passionless Procreation (from chapter 16)
“Chapter 18.— Of the Shame Which Attends All Sexual Intercourse.”
Note that he doesn’t say sex out of wedlock. He says _all_ sex.
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### Author:  [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)
#### Post date: [September 27, 2009, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-churches-and-sexual-positions/511554/44 "2009-09-27T14:35:47Z")
> [@Wendell\_Wagner](#):
>
> Is there anyone here who’s actually read _The City of God_? That would be a lot more useful than having read Panatti. Who knows whether Panatti is correctly summarizing _The City of God_?
You’re giving the impression that you don’t know much about the influence of this work (_Civitas Dei_, not Panatti) on the medieval and early modern Roman church. Huge would be an understatement. Augustine is not an obscure writer, and his negative views on _cupiditas_ (“desire”) vs. love (_caritas_) are well known and pretty easy to find on the internet. I looked at half a dozen sources on Google Books and they were all consistent with what’s been posted here. If you have to pick a single writer to represent pre-modern Christian thought, Augustine is one of maybe a half-dozen go-to guys. The Wikipedia article isn’t very good, but Catholic Encyclopedia is. Here’s the [summary page](http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1201.htm): go have a look at C. 14 and get back to us with your objections.
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### Author:  [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)
#### Post date: [September 27, 2009, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-churches-and-sexual-positions/511554/45 "2009-09-27T15:10:54Z")
Then why did DocCathode only mention Augustine in the context of what he had read in Panatti? It sure sounded to me like DocCathode only knew what Augustine had said from the quotations in Panatti. Since Augustine is that important a Christian writer, someone explaining what Augustine had written should have read _The City of God_ himself and not be quoting from Panatti’s summary of it.
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### Author:  [@Uncertain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uncertain)
#### Post date: [September 27, 2009, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-churches-and-sexual-positions/511554/46 "2009-09-27T16:40:03Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#):
>
> No, but theoretically “sodomy” is whatever the bad things that Sodom was doing that got it destroyed.
I don’t think so. Even if Sodom was destroyed for general inhospitality, the English word _sodomy_ means some sort of sexual “immorality” (I imagine it’s a reference to the attempted rape, whatever the connection of that incident to the destruction). If we somehow learned that Sodom was actually destroyed for rampant theft, it would not follow that _sodomy_ means theft, theoretically or otherwise. If the Bible used a term like _sodomy_ we could argue about what the Bible meant by it, but that’s not the case. Similarly, _onanism_ does not mean failure to perform one’s levirate duty.
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### Author:  [@Uncertain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uncertain)
#### Post date: [September 27, 2009, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-churches-and-sexual-positions/511554/47 "2009-09-27T16:51:12Z")
> [@Markxxx](#):
>
> Historically the church has looked on sex as a necessary evil. Sex is to be used for procreation and that is all.
>
> Why? Because it’s pleasure, and most forms of pleasure were regarded as frivilous and not necessary.
> …
> So if you look at it from that context you can see why missionary sex was deemed the only way. Get in and get out. In other words have sex, to be “fruitful and multiply” but only for as long as it takes to make a baby and no more.
I’m not sure of the connection between the first part and “missionary position”. Does sex in that position generally take less time? Is it widely regarded as less pleasurable than other positions? (I’m aware that different people prefer different positions. Missionary seems to be among the favorites though, even among the sexually liberated.)
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### Author:  [@dracoi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dracoi)
#### Post date: [September 28, 2009, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-churches-and-sexual-positions/511554/48 "2009-09-28T17:41:56Z")
> [@Uncertain](#):
>
> I’m not sure of the connection between the first part and “missionary position”. Does sex in that position generally take less time? Is it widely regarded as less pleasurable than other positions? (I’m aware that different people prefer different positions. Missionary seems to be among the favorites though, even among the sexually liberated.)
I don’t know if there’s going to be a single answer to this. It’s highly possible the reason was that someone had got it into his head that missionary was the normal position and just went from there.
But, there are some distinct differences. For one, there aren’t any animals using the missionary position, which helps make it seem less carnal. You’ve got face-to-face contact better than any other position and certainly better than than in any other woman below position. Missionary is well-suited for having sex without needing to see anyone naked.
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### Author:  [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)
#### Post date: [September 28, 2009, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-churches-and-sexual-positions/511554/49 "2009-09-28T17:46:16Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#):
>
> I recall Jerry Falwell claimed that woman on top sex was sinful due to not being properly submissive for the woman, and that it was the favored position of the mythical Lilith.
You may recall it, but you need a cite for it. Especially if you claim that Falwell ever talked about Lilith.
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### Author:  [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)
#### Post date: [September 28, 2009, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-churches-and-sexual-positions/511554/50 "2009-09-28T17:52:44Z")
> [@Bijou\_Drains](#):
>
> I always thought that some of this comes from the idea that some positions (like back door) are viewed as being similar to gay sex so that’s why they are frowned on.
>
> Some states still have laws on the books that call some positions “crimes against nature” .
Not true, although it’s possible you’re conflating “positions”, such as doggy-style vaginal intercourse, with actual anal sex. No state criminalizes positions in which people may have vaginal intercourse. Some states do criminalize oral or anal sex.
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### Author:  [@Icerigger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Icerigger)
#### Post date: [September 28, 2009, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-churches-and-sexual-positions/511554/51 "2009-09-28T17:53:23Z")
My link in post #6 covers a lot of this directly, unfortunately it does not let you paste any of the text.
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### Author:  [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)
#### Post date: [September 28, 2009, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-churches-and-sexual-positions/511554/52 "2009-09-28T17:59:22Z")
> [@FriarTed](#):
>
> You may recall it, but you need a cite for it. Especially if you claim that Falwell ever talked about Lilith.
OK, I found something, Falwell’s newspaper the National Liberty Journal denounced Lilith Fair as promoting feminism, abortion, lesbianism & paganism, and also the fact that it was named for a demonic figure. No mention of Falwell himself saying word one about Lilith or about sexual positions.
I never did get to attend one. I’d have liked to, because I like Sarah McL’s music & a lot of other femme-emo-type music, but I am absolutely sure if I had attended one, I’d have seen plenty of tables from groups promoting feminism, abortion choice, lesbianism & paganism, and OF COURSE Lilith was a demonic figure. She was part of Sumerian myth before she ever was incorporated into Hebrew lore.
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### Author:  [@TV\_time](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TV_time)
#### Post date: [September 28, 2009, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-churches-and-sexual-positions/511554/53 "2009-09-28T21:23:46Z")
I remember my older sister after “The Talk” with mom came away shaking her head. Mother apparently told her that good women did not have sex in certain ways.
As I listened to my sister later tell about the conversation, she said, “The whole time the thought kept running through my head, ‘I am not a good woman, and I have no desire to be.’”
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### Author:  [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)
#### Post date: [September 28, 2009, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-churches-and-sexual-positions/511554/54 "2009-09-28T22:49:21Z")
Some of the other great apes, including gorillas and bonobos, have been observed to use the missionary position.
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### Author:  [@Serenata67](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Serenata67)
#### Post date: [September 29, 2009, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-churches-and-sexual-positions/511554/55 "2009-09-29T00:40:16Z")
> [@Uncertain](#):
>
> Who, I understand, was dynamite in the sack.
>
> Lilith, that is.
Thought you had a thing for Mr. Fallwell… 😃
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### Author:  [@Uncertain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uncertain)
#### Post date: [September 29, 2009, 5:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-churches-and-sexual-positions/511554/56 "2009-09-29T05:51:13Z")
> [@Wendell\_Wagner](#):
>
> Some of the other great apes, including gorillas and bonobos, have been observed to use the missionary position.
Yes, but it’s thought to reflect the influence of European missionaries in Africa.
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