# Christian denominations and alternative theories on the impending Kingdom of God **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 4, 2005, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-denominations-and-alternative-theories-on-the-impending-kingdom-of-god/306837 "2005-06-04T04:06:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![WeRSauron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f19dbf/32.png) [@WeRSauron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WeRSauron)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2005, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-denominations-and-alternative-theories-on-the-impending-kingdom-of-god/306837/1 "2005-06-04T04:06:40Z")
In most of the Christianity I have studied, most of the denominations believe in an End of Times. By this, they mean that at some point in time there will be a grand war between good and evil (often called the Battle of Armageddon), which the good side will win. There will be a judgment of sorts, and the Kingdom of God will be firmly established for ever. At this time, people will reside in Heaven or Hell. There will be no more evil, and the world will no longer exist (or if it does, it will be completely different). What other theories are there? Are there Christian denominations that don’t believe in an End of Days? (I think Christian Scientists don’t believe in such a thing.) What do Catholics and Orthodox believe in this regard? WRS ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2005, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-denominations-and-alternative-theories-on-the-impending-kingdom-of-god/306837/2 "2005-06-04T04:28:15Z")
> [@](#): > > What do Catholics and Orthodox believe in this regard? As far as Catholics (which, for most intents and purposes is also the Orthodox and Assyrian view) believe… nothign much. We don’t know; it has not been revealed except in extremely vague terms. Much of what certain Protestant sects take as the End Times stuff in the Bible is prophecy that was fulfilled a very long time ago. But in general, Good wins. We don’t know how and it isn’t important. You can call it a Battle between Good and Evil, Armageddon, whatevere, but it will probably be nothing you could imagine. As far as Catholicism, I believe we expect the Earth to become perfect (yes, after we’re all in heaven) and made whole again. As far as the damned, well, they’re damned. Hell is eternal. However, I did note two possible loopholes God may have left for them. (1) They are trapped in Hell because of their Evil; Hell is a reflection if it. If they cease to be evil, they could set about turning Hell into Heaven, which would probably work. (2) Eternity may refer to eternity of the universe, not the outside of time and space. In which case they have eternity to purify themselves. No, it doesn’t make sense from a human perspective, but it could from that of a creature who can see the end of eternities. Of course, it’s not certain that they or the rebellious angels will repent; it’s up to them. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2005, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-denominations-and-alternative-theories-on-the-impending-kingdom-of-god/306837/3 "2005-06-04T04:38:43Z")
“Kingdom [of Heaven/God]” is a KJV usage carried down to modern times, but it’s a particularly squirrelly usage for Jesus’s references to God’s rightful lordship over all, in particular the ones in which he is speaking of the need to interiorize that lordship and make oneself a willing subject of God’s Kingdom. Despite the bad taste left by Herr Hitler’s abuse of the term, the German _Reich_ is probably the closest modern-language parallel to what Jesus meant – rightful authority over not places but people, willingly accepted by them. The Holy Roman Empire and the Second Reich German Empire were a unification of Germans under one rule willingly accepted by the Kaiser’s subjects. Likewise, God’s people are supposed to be united under His rule. The modern triumphalist viewpoint that it is a future “secular” authority of God (or rather of His self-appointed spokesmen) is most likely a perversion of what Jesus intended by the term in His parables and teachings. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2005, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-denominations-and-alternative-theories-on-the-impending-kingdom-of-god/306837/4 "2005-06-04T05:07:40Z")
I want to add, some of the things Catholics don’t believe. There is no Rapture. There is not necessarily a World War 3 or 4 or 5 on the Plains of Armageddon. There is no war among the angels - that was settled when Lucifer was cast out of heaven. There is no secular theocracy of the sort some televangelists want. We think that Revelations was talking about the time of the Roman emperors (Nero probably), not some futuristic “Omen” world. There is no Left Behind “thing” going on. We do believe there will be a judgment of some sort, but nobody knows the details. Most importantly, we read the Bible as parable, imagery and equivalents. It is not to be taken as absolutely literal. It doesn’t matter how many “begats” there are or whether Methuselah really live a zillion years. The “everything” wasn’t necessarily created in 6 literal earth days, the earth is not just 6000 years old, and there are no Jesus horses. Much of what is being written these days just passes as fantasy or science fiction. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2005, 6:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-denominations-and-alternative-theories-on-the-impending-kingdom-of-god/306837/5 "2005-06-04T06:12:54Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > …and there are no Jesus horses. To be fair to our creationist fellows, and it’s a strain but I’ll try, [“Jesus horses”](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=286216&highlight=jesus+horses) was made up by Jimmy Fallon on SNL. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2005, 6:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-denominations-and-alternative-theories-on-the-impending-kingdom-of-god/306837/6 "2005-06-04T06:20:05Z")
> [@smiling bandit](#): > > As far as the damned, well, they’re damned. Hell is eternal. However, I did note two possible loopholes God may have left for them. (1) They are trapped in Hell because of their Evil; Hell is a reflection if it. If they cease to be evil, they could set about turning Hell into Heaven, which would probably work. (2) Eternity may refer to eternity of the universe, not the outside of time and space. In which case they have eternity to purify themselves. No, it doesn’t make sense from a human perspective, but it could from that of a creature who can see the end of eternities. Of course, it’s not certain that they or the rebellious angels will repent; it’s up to them. I think you’re forgetting about the Catholic belief in Purgatory. ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2005, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-denominations-and-alternative-theories-on-the-impending-kingdom-of-god/306837/7 "2005-06-04T16:16:04Z")
There is one Christian group I know of which does not believe in a future “End of Days”- the Full Preterist crowd. They believe that humanity & the physical universe may last eternally, probably growing more in Christian faith & character, but occasionally facing anti-Christian challenges, which in the long run, will produce greater maturity & godliness. The Second Coming & Resurrection were happening spiritually while the Tribulation/Wrath of God on Jerusalem was happening physically in 70 AD. Thus, Christ is now reigning as King, the Church (of all believers) is the earthly manifestation of the Kingdom. When people die, they go right into their Resurrected state & Eternal Judgement. Partial Preterists believe there will be a future Return of Jesus & Resurrection of the Dead. A-millenialists (Non-millenialists- mainly the Catholic, Orthodox & Reformation churches) do not believe there will be a future Christian earthly utopia, whether by Christ’s Return or the Spirit’s working through the Church. Jesus returns, ends evil, raises the dead, judges everyone, ends the physical universe, takes us to Heaven. Post-mils (some conservative Reformation groups) do believe there will be a long-range Christian earthly utopia, after which Satan is allowed to test humanity. Jesus returns, same as above. Pre-mils (many Evangelical churches) hold that Jesus returns to destroy AntiChrist, end the Tribulation, rule on Earth for a thousand years, releases Satan for a short test of humanity, then comes the final resurrection & judgement & end of world & New Heavens & New Earth. I think the Bible is clear- there will be an era on earth in which most of humanity truly lives in Christian faith & principles. I lean to this being inaugurated by the bodily return of Jesus at Armageddon (btw, I don’t necessarily believe that He & the Risen Ruling Saints & Angels will always be visible during that time, but they will be Present & make that Presence known when necessary). If however, God decides to kick His Church into gear through His Spirit & She (the Church) successfully evangelizes & disciples all societies on the Earth, I won’t complain. ---
**Author:** ![dotchan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9d8465/32.png) [@dotchan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dotchan)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2005, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-denominations-and-alternative-theories-on-the-impending-kingdom-of-god/306837/8 "2005-06-04T16:47:38Z")
My belief is that the Kingdom of God already arrived with the incarnation, crucifixtion, and resurrection of Jesus Christ, and that it will be fully implemented as soon he returns. And, really, if you think about it, it’s not so much an end as a new beginning. (A new hope, even. 😉 ) ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2005, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-denominations-and-alternative-theories-on-the-impending-kingdom-of-god/306837/9 "2005-06-04T17:07:24Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > To be fair to our creationist fellows, and it’s a strain but I’ll try, [“Jesus horses”](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=286216&highlight=jesus+horses) was made up by Jimmy Fallon on SNL. I know, I just couldn’t resist. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2005, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-denominations-and-alternative-theories-on-the-impending-kingdom-of-god/306837/10 "2005-06-04T17:15:14Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > I think you’re forgetting about the Catholic belief in Purgatory. Right. You go to heaven if you are good. You go to hell if you are evil, and even then the evil had to be done deliberately and with full knowledge that what you did was completely evil. In short, to go to hell, you have to really work at it. Purgatory is for the rest of us; we’re not evil enough to deserve hell, not good enough to deserve the “E ticket” to heaven. Purgatory is also not so much a punishment, as a purifying and “educational” experience. You know you will get out of there. With hell, there is no reprieve. Also, hell isn’t necessarily a lake of fire and devils with forks. The hell is separation from God. Forever. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2005, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-denominations-and-alternative-theories-on-the-impending-kingdom-of-god/306837/11 "2005-06-04T17:18:04Z")
My father wasn’t a Jehovah’s Witness by conviction but he was raised one and most of his family were. Their views were always odd to me. 144,000 will enter heaven (from the verse in Revelations) The rest of the Righteous will populate a “New Earth”, essentially a worldly paradise (devoid of 72 virgins per man and all that) Hell is the grave (i.e. oblivion rather than a fiery furnace) When they hold communions at their Kingdom Halls, only the “heavenly” class partake (how they know who they are I’m not sure). Sometimes this may mean only one or two parishioners partake in a congregation of several dozen. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2005, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-denominations-and-alternative-theories-on-the-impending-kingdom-of-god/306837/12 "2005-06-04T19:35:54Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > Despite the bad taste left by Herr Hitler’s abuse of the term, the German _Reich_ is probably the closest modern-language parallel to what Jesus meant – rightful authority over not places but people, willingly accepted by them. The Holy Roman Empire and the Second Reich German Empire were a unification of Germans under one rule willingly accepted by the Kaiser’s subjects. Likewise, God’s people are supposed to be united under His rule. Hijack and a nitpick: I thought the Holy Roman Empire was Austria, not Prussia. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2005, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-denominations-and-alternative-theories-on-the-impending-kingdom-of-god/306837/13 "2005-06-05T00:53:04Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Hijack and a nitpick: I thought the Holy Roman Empire was Austria, not Prussia. The Holy Roman Empire was _Germany_ (not Prussia, which was not even a gleam in the Hohenzollerns’ eye at the time), Luxembourg, Bohemia (Czech Rep.), and Austria, with various other modern European nations included at different times (e.g., Switzerland, half of Italy, the Benelux states). The last few hundred years of its existence, it was (while technically electoral) ruled by the Habsburg who was Grand Duke and Elector of Austria, King of Hungary, etc., but it is not equivalent to the later Austrian Empire/Dual Monarchy, formed in 1808 when the last Holy Roman Emperor terminated the empire rather than let it become yet another of Napoleon’s titles. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2005, 5:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-denominations-and-alternative-theories-on-the-impending-kingdom-of-god/306837/14 "2005-06-05T05:47:34Z")
> [@](#): > > I think you’re forgetting about the Catholic belief in Purgatory. I admit, I did kind of forget about it, though I probably would have left it out for simplicity’s sake. Sorry for the confusion. ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2005, 6:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-denominations-and-alternative-theories-on-the-impending-kingdom-of-god/306837/15 "2005-06-05T06:53:29Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > The hell is separation from God. Then I must be in hell. So far it ain’t too bad, what with the golf and all. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2005, 6:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-denominations-and-alternative-theories-on-the-impending-kingdom-of-god/306837/16 "2005-06-05T06:56:00Z")
> [@David Simmons](#): > > Then I must be in hell. So far it ain’t too bad, what with the golf and all. 😉 So is the separation from God how you explain away your game? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2005, 11:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-denominations-and-alternative-theories-on-the-impending-kingdom-of-god/306837/17 "2005-06-05T11:24:20Z")
> [@WeRSauron](#): > > In most of the Christianity I have studied, most of the denominations believe in an End of Times. By this, they mean that at some point in time there will be a grand war between good and evil (often called the Battle of Armageddon), which the good side will win. There will be a judgment of sorts, and the Kingdom of God will be firmly established for ever. At this time, people will reside in Heaven or Hell. There will be no more evil, and the world will no longer exist (or if it does, it will be completely different). > > What other theories are there? Are there Christian denominations that don’t believe in an End of Days? (I think Christian Scientists don’t believe in such a thing.) What do Catholics and Orthodox believe in this regard? > > WRS The idea of a rapture came from Revelations of John. But according to what Jesus told the Apostles, the world woud end in that generation. When Jesus was asked for the signs of the end of the world, he mentions that the stars would fall etc… and added: this generation will not pass away until all this has been accomplished; that was several generatios ago. The early Church fathers that gathered the writings if the New Testement decided the word generation, must not mean generation literally, because the world had not yet ended. Monavis ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2005, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-denominations-and-alternative-theories-on-the-impending-kingdom-of-god/306837/18 "2005-06-05T13:28:00Z")
> [@monavis](#): > > The idea of a rapture came from Revelations of John. But according to what Jesus told the Apostles, the world woud end in that generation. When Jesus was asked for the signs of the end of the world, he mentions that the stars would fall etc… and added: this generation will not pass away until all this has been accomplished; that was several generatios ago. The early Church fathers that gathered the writings if the New Testement decided the word generation, must not mean generation literally, because the world had not yet ended. > > Monavis 1.) It’s “Revelation”, not “Revelations”. 2.) The Rapture doctrine as now popularly understood seemed to originate from a 1750’s Welsh-American preacher Morgan Edwards, and was more fully developed in the British Isles by ecstatic utterances by Margaret MacDonald, the church pastored by Edward Irving, and the dispensationalist studies of John Nelson Darby. It takes some creativity to find any Rapture in Revelation (I lean to Rev 14, the Harvest by the Son of Man, after the Seventh Trumpet & before the First Vial, there are other possible places in Rev.) Oops! Gotta run! I’ll get more into this later. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2005, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-denominations-and-alternative-theories-on-the-impending-kingdom-of-god/306837/19 "2005-06-05T14:35:53Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > The Holy Roman Empire was _Germany_ (not Prussia, which was not even a gleam in the Hohenzollerns’ eye at the time), Luxembourg, Bohemia (Czech Rep.), and Austria, with various other modern European nations included at different times (e.g., Switzerland, half of Italy, the Benelux states). The last few hundred years of its existence, it was (while technically electoral) ruled by the Habsburg who was Grand Duke and Elector of Austria, King of Hungary, etc., but it is not equivalent to the later Austrian Empire/Dual Monarchy, formed in 1808 when the last Holy Roman Emperor terminated the empire rather than let it become yet another of Napoleon’s titles. Ah, you’re right-I got confused when you said the Kaiser, because usually one thinks of Willhelm II. (Even though the Austrian Emperor was also known as “Kaiser.”) Thanks. :o ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2005, 11:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-denominations-and-alternative-theories-on-the-impending-kingdom-of-god/306837/20 "2005-06-06T11:26:31Z")
> [@FriarTed](#): > > 1.) It’s “Revelation”, not “Revelations”. > > 2.) The Rapture doctrine as now popularly understood seemed to originate from a 1750’s Welsh-American preacher Morgan Edwards, and was more fully developed in the British Isles by ecstatic utterances by Margaret MacDonald, the church pastored by Edward Irving, and the dispensationalist studies of John Nelson Darby. It takes some creativity to find any Rapture in Revelation (I lean to Rev 14, the Harvest by the Son of Man, after the Seventh Trumpet & before the First Vial, there are other possible places in Rev.) > > Oops! Gotta run! I’ll get more into this later. One of the people who I talked with about the rapture said their minister got it from John’s Revelations, I do not believe in it,so whether it has an "s " or not doesn’t bother me… The Apostles surely believed the end of times were near and that(I believe is why they questioned Jesus(according to the New Testament) how to know the signs. Time ends for all of us, but the ending of the world will not have the stars falling on the earth. They didn’t know at that time that many of what they thought were stars, were planets. Nor did they know of gravity. Monavis