# Christian Dopers Thread **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 15, 2004, 11:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-dopers-thread/269351 "2004-10-15T11:18:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![roger\_thornhill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@roger\_thornhill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/roger_thornhill)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2004, 6:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-dopers-thread/269351/141 "2004-10-21T06:47:02Z")
> [@Zoe](#): > > **Roger** , about twenty years ago I had to fight a smaller, but still professionally threatening battle against the Executive Principle of the school where I taught. I didn’t have to fight it by myself, but I prepared most of my case just out of the sheer rage I was feeling at the injustice and humiliation. > > I won my grievance easily and the principle eventually was asked to resign. But by the time I had managed some semblance of forgiveness, the rage had just eaten me alive and I quit teaching. The anger continued for a long time even though it didn’t seem to be directed _at_ anyone. > > I may not know your feelings, but I do understand burn out. When people understood that I had a chance of winning the court action (defamation), a common response was that it would be a Pyrrhic victory. They were perhaps right, but thereagain most victories are. Rage _is_ a problem. For me, my career in universities was over, but I have been fortunate to get a reasonable job in PR, where my pseudo-lawyer skills can be put to use. > [@Zoe](#): > > (Aside to **Roger** )I dreamed about Victoria Station last night. I came up out of a subway at night and there it was. It was glorious! I walked along the street and asked people where a pleasant pub was, but the neighborhood got scuffier and an old man in a tweed overcoat and a bowler (what an awful stereotype) pinched my cheek and called me “dearie.” What I want to know is, is Victoria Station really still there and what is that awful man doing in a Christian dream? I once was part of a mission that was based near Victoria Station, funnily enough. Having been there in a long time, but it is a melting pot of a place, with beggars mingling with commuters, beautiful houses with “cheap” hotels. ---
**Author:** ![Lissla\_Lissar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8491ac/32.png) [@Lissla\_Lissar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lissla_Lissar)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2004, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-dopers-thread/269351/142 "2004-10-21T14:55:01Z")
**Zoe** , a friend translated that poem from spanish for her. It’s in _Two-Part Invention: The Story of a Marriage_, which is about her her marriage and her husband’s death from cancer. I grew up reading her sf, and then her diaries and other non-fiction. I think she was my real formative religious instruction. Because of her, and the writers she quotes, I read Julian of Norwich, Thomas Merton, George MacDonald, the Desert Fathers, and St. Juan de la Cruz. She was my introduction to theology and poetry. I am profoundly grateful to her. ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2004, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-dopers-thread/269351/143 "2004-10-21T16:45:21Z")
> [@Zoe](#): > > an old man in a tweed overcoat and a bowler (what an awful stereotype) pinched my cheek and called me “dearie.” What I want to know is, is Victoria Station really still there and what is that awful man doing in a Christian dream? omigod! C.S. Lewis hit on you! _L_ ---
**Author:** ![Freyr](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/freyr/32/5763_2.png) [@Freyr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freyr)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2004, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-dopers-thread/269351/144 "2004-10-21T16:49:44Z")
> [@vanilla](#): > > I cannot prove it while we are here on earth. Faith is required. > By the time I COULD prove it, it would be too late. > > You don’t HAVE to believe it. > > Millions of people don’t believe polka dotted elephants etc. and get martyred. > > Salvation is a free gift(well, it cost Jesus, but). > If you reject it, its pretty much your decision and you suffer the consequneces. First **Vanilla** , _thank you_ for answering the question. And with that answer, I hope you can understand why I don’t practice Christianty, as it offers no evidence that it is any more “right” or “true” than any other religion on the planet. This idea, that there can only be “one, true” religion is a Christian concept and makes no sense (at least to me), especially based upon my own experience. The religion I do practice, Wicca, does offer me values and goals that make sense of the world and resonate within me far deeper than anything Christianity ever offered. From my point of view, all you’ve done is re-word Pascal’s wager and tried to get me to accept it. I think the atheists on the board have shown the folly of that argument and why I don’t accept it. You also talk about salvation. Well, again, that’s a purely Christian concept. Once you get outside of the Christian world view with its dichotomy of “good” and “evil” and its absolutism, you discover that the world becomes a wonderful place to live and explore rather than walking a tightrope, forever worrying if you’re going to eternal torment or not for the slightest infraction. ---
**Author:** ![Freyr](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/freyr/32/5763_2.png) [@Freyr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freyr)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2004, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-dopers-thread/269351/145 "2004-10-21T17:00:07Z")
> [@SolGrundy](#): > > We can most certainly look offended when anyone shows such disrespect for our religion that they completely dismiss it as something ludicrous and fanciful. > > Why is fundamentalism offensive to atheists and non-fundamentalists? Because it shows a completely lack of respect for any belief system other than their own. And yet, many atheists show a complete lack of respect for the beliefs of the spiritual or religious, and act as if this is completely acceptable behavior. _ **sigh** _ Please go back and look at the _first_ part of my statement, where I was only talking about the idea of “one, true religion” **NOT** the belief in God. Here is it is: > [@](#): > > Can you prove that? Can you show that Christianity is the only one, TRUE religion? That’s what I asked you before and you completely missed the point. (I assume that’s what you’re saying here, as a paraphrase of the famous quote attributed to Jesus that thru him is the only way to the God) The issue at hand is **Vanilla’s** point that Christianity is the “one, true” religion, not her belief in God. The two are entirely different concepts. For the record, I’m a theist, too. I do believe in the gods, as I’ve had my own experience with them. I agree, belief in the gods requires faith and I can understand how atheists would question that. But that’s not the issue here. The issue is **Vanilla’s** blanket statement about Christianity being the one, true faith. I think that can be shown to have no basis in reality and as such, when proclaimed loudly and with no supporting substantial evidence, can be ridiculed. ---
**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2004, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-dopers-thread/269351/146 "2004-10-21T17:15:36Z")
> [@Freyr](#): > > that the world becomes a wonderful place to live and explore rather than walking a tightrope, forever worrying if you’re going to eternal torment or not for the slightest infraction. Thats a wonderful part of being a christian; no more worrying, youre saved! As for ridicule, well God is not just Love He is also Justice. Heres a good analogy-all the world has “body” cancer. This man comes offering a free cure. Lots won’t take it. Why? They don’t see the synmptoms and don’t believe they have it. Its their fault if they die from it, the free cure was offered. Your ridicule will stop when you see God face to face. Now I can hear the Dopers saying “God is unfair!” The world seems to think its wrong to EVER punish anyone for anything. Yes, God does have a right to punish us. If you thin its unfair, then go open all thew prisons, its unfair to keep prisoners then too. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2004, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-dopers-thread/269351/147 "2004-10-21T17:47:56Z")
> [@vanilla](#): > > Thats a wonderful part of being a christian; no more worrying, youre saved! A wonderful part of my branch is that the belief is that “You’re human; no more worrying, you’re saved!” Jesus, in his death, atoned for ALL of the sins of humanity, not just for believers. It is nice to be grateful, like the one leper who returned to thank Jesus for his cure, _but the other lepers did not relapse because they did not say thank you._ All people were saved because all sins were atoned for, including ones we haven’t committed yet! Again, though, it’s nice (Lutherans are into niceness 😉 ) not to commit more because they _do_ make the Baby Jesus cry. ---
**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2004, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-dopers-thread/269351/148 "2004-10-21T17:51:37Z")
Are you seriously saying all people are saved, including those who don’t believe in God? If so, you are wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Triskadecamus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b19c9b/32.png) [@Triskadecamus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Triskadecamus)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2004, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-dopers-thread/269351/149 "2004-10-22T03:02:47Z")
If the Lord wants to save someone, He doesn’t need scriptural references, or permission from the Apostles. I think I will leave the salvation decisions up to Him. Tris ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2004, 6:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-dopers-thread/269351/150 "2004-10-22T06:20:18Z")
> [@vanilla](#): > > Are you seriously saying all people are saved, including those who don’t believe in God? > If so, you are wrong. The problem with the whole “Saved” theory is that it basically reduces God to B. F. Skinner, and it’s all about reward and punishment. And God is the one who set up the universe in the first place, so he created it that way. He would make it so one had to be “saved”, by basically kissing his ass. Now, I know that’s not what the majority of Christians believe-but the very vocal fundy set DOES basically adher to this, and it makes me quite ill. A distant cousin of mine was exccomunicated earlier this year (he’s a priest) for daring to speak out about the ordination of women, and married priests, and said something I found very apt: God is not a supreme being. He’s not some great king in the sky. God is more of an action-that every time we love, or show goodness, we’re showing God. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2004, 6:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-dopers-thread/269351/151 "2004-10-22T06:36:10Z")
> [@](#): > > **roger thornhill** : I once was part of a mission that was based near Victoria Station, funnily enough. Having been there in a long time, but it is a melting pot of a place, with beggars mingling with commuters, beautiful houses with “cheap” hotels. > [@](#): > > **FriarTed** : omigod! C.S. Lewis hit on you! _L_ Oh great. Now I’m going to have this image of **roger** looking like Joss Ackland… **Lissla** , I’m going to keep a copy of your last post. I think it’s the right time for me to read her. Is this where I should begin? ---
**Author:** ![Siege](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@Siege](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siege)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2004, 9:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-dopers-thread/269351/152 "2004-10-22T09:56:11Z")
**Vanilla** , let me ask you this. Would God truly grant, say, **lynn73** , an eternity of joy while condemning my Wiccan friend to an eternity of suffering? Why do you want to place limits on God’s mercy? That leper who came back to Him and thanked Him was a Samaritan, not “saved” by the standards of the day, yet Luke has Christ saying this: > [@](#): > > Jesus asked, “Were not all ten cleansed? Where are the other nine? Was no one found to return and give praise to God except this foreigner?” Then he said to him, “Rise and go; your faith has made you well.” (Full story [here, Luke 17:11-19](http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?passage=Luke+17%3A11-19&NIV_version=yes&language=english&x=16&y=13).) Now, you could argue whether or not Jesus knew the other nine would not return, and it would be an interesting argument regarding Christ’s omniscience during the time He lived on earth as a human being. (Note to self: try not to have to spell “omniscience” before having morning cup of tea.;)) My point is, He healed all ten without knowing if any would be grateful, or, if He did, that only one would be grateful, and without regard to their nationality or faith. Now, I admit that the link I posted has the lepers saying, “Jesus, Master, have pity on us!” yet I’m not sure how different that would be for a modern beggar asking, say Howard Dean or Oprah Winfrey for help. I mean, you’ve got someone who’s only way of making a living is begging (yes, I know that’s not true of modern-day beggars) asking a celebrity who’s well known for charity for help. I suspect I’ve opened another theological can of worms, so I think I’ll shut up for now. CJ ---
**Author:** ![roger\_thornhill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@roger\_thornhill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/roger_thornhill)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2004, 11:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-dopers-thread/269351/153 "2004-10-22T11:31:41Z")
**Zoe** , getting that way, I have to admit, though I still have some hair. I really enjoyed the Shadowlands with Ackland and Clare Bloom. The later film with Anthony Hopkins was just a bit disappointing in comparison. It’s interesting how C.S. Lewis has become so popular in the States. At first, he was rather looked down upon there, I believe, because he wasn’t “intellectual” enough. Not enough cites, I suspect. He fared even worse in Germany, where his arguments were considered far too simple. They wanted to make Lewis to make it more complex for his German editions, which he politely(?) declined. Top man. ---
**Author:** ![roger\_thornhill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@roger\_thornhill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/roger_thornhill)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2004, 11:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-dopers-thread/269351/154 "2004-10-22T11:33:02Z")
Too many 'to make’s. I think the first one can go. ---
**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2004, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-dopers-thread/269351/155 "2004-10-22T13:12:00Z")
God is a supreme being. Claiming He is just a verb means He doesn’t even exist. That is really stretching it to excuse everything. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Lissla\_Lissar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8491ac/32.png) [@Lissla\_Lissar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lissla_Lissar)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2004, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-dopers-thread/269351/156 "2004-10-22T15:12:50Z")
Yes, I think _Two-Part Invention_ would be a good place to start. Have you read any of her young adult novels? If you haven’t, I recommend reading the Murray series, to get a feel for her writing. All of her diaries are great, although _Two-Part_ is the only one I’ve reread recently, because it’s my favourite. I am a rabid L’Engle/Lewis/Chesteron/Kathleen Norris fan. ---
**Author:** ![Lissla\_Lissar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8491ac/32.png) [@Lissla\_Lissar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lissla_Lissar)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2004, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-dopers-thread/269351/157 "2004-10-22T15:14:09Z")
I forgot Merton. Him, too. ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2004, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-dopers-thread/269351/158 "2004-10-22T15:30:32Z")
> [@roger thornhill](#): > > **Zoe** , getting that way, I have to admit, though I still have some hair. I really enjoyed the Shadowlands with Ackland and Clare Bloom. The later film with Anthony Hopkins was just a bit disappointing in comparison. > > It’s interesting how C.S. Lewis has become so popular in the States. At first, he was rather looked down upon there, I believe, because he wasn’t “intellectual” enough. Not enough cites, I suspect. > > He fared even worse in Germany, where his arguments were considered far too simple. They wanted to make Lewis to make it more complex for his German editions, which he politely(?) declined. > > Top man. I assume you mean that Lewis was looked down upon in the US by academic theologians. He’s always was successful with the U.S. reading public. Theologically, Lewis was a popularizer, more intellectual than most, but not in an academic way (academics for him was in his teaching of literature). Even Bob Jones Sr. had to acquiesce “He drinks alcohol and smokes a pipe, but I believe he is a Christian.” _L_ ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2004, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-dopers-thread/269351/159 "2004-10-22T15:34:26Z")
> [@Lissla Lissar](#): > > I forgot Merton. Him, too. Ever read Walker Percy? ---
**Author:** ![Freyr](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/freyr/32/5763_2.png) [@Freyr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freyr)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2004, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-dopers-thread/269351/160 "2004-10-22T16:49:41Z")
**Vanilla** , I’m not trying to convert you or show you the errors of Christianity, but rather give you an idea of how arrogant and condescending some Christians sound when they makes blanket statements about being the only one, true religion. What’s worse is when asked to prove the point, they can only make circular arguments to their own holy book. Such pronoucements show a level of naivety that is stupifying. Luckily, not all Christians follow this line of thought, as shown in this thread. > [@vanilla](#): > > God is a supreme being. Claiming He is just a verb means He doesn’t even exist. > That is really stretching it to excuse everything. ☹ Oh, good! You finally admit there’s more than one god! There’s hope for you yet! 😃 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-dopers-thread/269351.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-dopers-thread/269351.md?page=9)