# Christian dopers...would a Pagan "heaven" be a Hell to you? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 9, 2003, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-dopers-would-a-pagan-heaven-be-a-hell-to-you/217824 "2003-12-09T01:52:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![rivulus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/839c29/32.png) [@rivulus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rivulus)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2003, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-dopers-would-a-pagan-heaven-be-a-hell-to-you/217824/61 "2003-12-11T03:10:57Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by vanilla \* > **wrong**. > The point of Jesus was to be a sacrifice for our sins, He had to be punished or we could never be forgiven. > Youre welcome. I grew up trying to believe this idea and twisting myself in knots trying to perceive it as a good thing. But the longer I’m away from this belief system, the uglier it seems when I come across it again. Sin, sacrifice, punishment, hell… Who wants to live for all eternity with a god associated with all that bloody mess? Might just as well be in Valhalla hacking each other to bits and trying to convince ourselves _that’s_ a good thing. Nah. Give me anything from the Elysian fields to Nirvana (or even dirt) compared to the Christian heaven and hell. I wouldn’t mind meeting Jesus as teacher of compassion, though. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2003, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-dopers-would-a-pagan-heaven-be-a-hell-to-you/217824/62 "2003-12-11T03:50:57Z")
My idea of Heaven would be a place where I could wear period costumes all the time, eat delicious fatty foods, read good books, and be with those who I love the most. I think Heaven will be an idealized version of what we love on Earth. And I think there is reincarnation-we can CHOOSE to come back, and keep learning, and such. ---
**Author:** ![Ranchoth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ranchoth/32/1066_2.png) [@Ranchoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ranchoth)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2003, 5:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-dopers-would-a-pagan-heaven-be-a-hell-to-you/217824/63 "2003-12-11T05:53:15Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by vanilla \* > \*\*Heaven is for fellowshipwith Jesus. You don’t wanna be with Him, don’t come! \*\* OK, that sounds reasonable enough for me. And thanks for the replies, all. ---
**Author:** ![lynn73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ebca7d/32.png) [@lynn73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lynn73)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2003, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-dopers-would-a-pagan-heaven-be-a-hell-to-you/217824/64 "2003-12-11T15:35:05Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by vanilla \* > \*\*lynn73! > My sister in the Lord, and one of the few other christians here. > Nice to see you. > Heaven is for fellowshipwith Jesus. > You don’t wanna be with Him, don’t come! > 🙂 \*\* Hi, vanilla! I don’t come here too often anymore. Just once in awhile to see what’s going on. I’m too busy somewhere else, if you know what I mean. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Siege](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@Siege](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siege)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2003, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-dopers-would-a-pagan-heaven-be-a-hell-to-you/217824/65 "2003-12-11T18:01:07Z")
All I can say is that the heaven the poster above me posits will be inhabited by far too few people for my taste. ---
**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2003, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-dopers-would-a-pagan-heaven-be-a-hell-to-you/217824/66 "2003-12-11T20:35:17Z")
“Narrow is the road and FEW that be that find it”. vanilla,forgetting exactlywhat verse that is. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2003, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-dopers-would-a-pagan-heaven-be-a-hell-to-you/217824/67 "2003-12-11T21:34:09Z")
Not only does it have too few people, **Siege** , it’s also not a place I would care to go even if I were welcome. ---
**Author:** ![Siege](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@Siege](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siege)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2003, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-dopers-would-a-pagan-heaven-be-a-hell-to-you/217824/68 "2003-12-11T22:55:01Z")
To which I can only respond, as I ever have, with [Matthew 25:31-46](http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?passage=Matthew+25%3A31-46&KJV_version=yes&language=english&x=15&y=15) and continue doing what I must, accepting the consequences of my action, hoping I am a sheep, but knowing I may find myself a goat. If so, I hope I am at least an honest one. CJ ---
**Author:** ![IWLN](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b5ac83/32.png) [@IWLN](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IWLN)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2003, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-dopers-would-a-pagan-heaven-be-a-hell-to-you/217824/69 "2003-12-11T23:24:59Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Siege \* > To which I can only respond, as I ever have, with [Matthew 25:31-46](http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?passage=Matthew+25%3A31-46&KJV_version=yes&language=english&x=15&y=15) and continue doing what I must, accepting the consequences of my action, hoping I am a sheep, but knowing I may find myself a goat. If so, I hope I am at least an honest one. Only a sheep is ever concerned about whether or not they are a goat. A goat has no interest in others and just assumes he is a sheep. You’re doing better than you think.🙂 ---
**Author:** ![lynn73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ebca7d/32.png) [@lynn73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lynn73)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2003, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-dopers-would-a-pagan-heaven-be-a-hell-to-you/217824/70 "2003-12-12T00:08:07Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by vanilla \* > \*\*“Narrow is the road and FEW that be that find it”. > vanilla,forgetting exactlywhat verse that is. \*\* Matthew 7:13-14 13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: 14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. ---
**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2003, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-dopers-would-a-pagan-heaven-be-a-hell-to-you/217824/71 "2003-12-12T03:31:01Z")
I’ve also heard lots of folk will be surprised at who they see there. I,personally,believe that 2 of the Manson murderers have been saved (so they claim) and will be there(if they really were, and I see no reason why they weren’t). I am glad I don’t get to decide who gets in, and I am glad people i know don’t get to decide,either. Mercy triumphs over judgment. I forget THAT verse, too.lynn? ---
**Author:** ![IWLN](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b5ac83/32.png) [@IWLN](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IWLN)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2003, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-dopers-would-a-pagan-heaven-be-a-hell-to-you/217824/72 "2003-12-12T03:58:45Z")
Boy, talk about how far away we can get from the topic here.:rolleyes: **Vanilla** - This is not meant to be confrontational, so I hope you’ll just clarify a few questions I have. I’m always puzzled at people who cheerfully quote Bible verses that indicate that so many people are **not** going to heaven. It is IMHO the worst possible witness. You’re telling someone to accept a loving Jesus on one hand and telling them that few will find him and the rest are doomed. Hard for people to reconcile a loving God dooming so many people. It is a contradiction that keeps people away. Heck it would keep me away if I believed it. Is there any room in your religion to aknowledge that the writers of the Bible were using scare tactics to control people and possibly distorted God’s intent? Or did God create this great big beautiful world and us, but is only interested in a small but select number of us? How do you explain to yourself that it is okay that anyone who doesn’t know Jesus is lost? Thank you. ---
**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2003, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-dopers-would-a-pagan-heaven-be-a-hell-to-you/217824/73 "2003-12-12T04:10:33Z")
God wants Everyone to be saved, but He won’t stop our freewill,if some don’t want to be saved. Okay that someone who doesn’t know Jesus, is lost? Well, accept His sacrifice,not just know Him. He gave us all an offer, free. We accept or reject. How is that unfair? If you want to get back to the OP\< then my answer would be It wouldn’t be much fun as Heaven is Jesus wasn’t there. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2003, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-dopers-would-a-pagan-heaven-be-a-hell-to-you/217824/74 "2003-12-12T04:12:07Z")
Mercy DOES triumph, **vanilla**. I like to think I’m a sheep-I try to be. But I don’t assume it. See, I just try to do what I should. I’ll leave the judgment up to God. **IWLN** , I couldn’t agree more. If God is like so many paint him, so judgmental that he’d doom someone to Hell for believe in say, evolution for example, then he’s a sadistic bastard who delights in torturing others. That’s why I’m sort of a non-specific religion theist, even though I still retain some of my Catholic beliefs. (You can take the girl out of the Catholic church, but you can’t take the Catholic church out of the girl, I suppose!) For me, it’s about the pursuit of knowledge. I think God wants us to educate ourselves, and keep learning and growing and know all that we can. ---
**Author:** ![IWLN](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b5ac83/32.png) [@IWLN](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IWLN)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2003, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-dopers-would-a-pagan-heaven-be-a-hell-to-you/217824/75 "2003-12-12T05:11:55Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by vanilla \* > God wants Everyone to be saved, but He won’t stop our freewill,if some don’t want to be saved. > > Okay that someone who doesn’t know Jesus, is lost? > Well, accept His sacrifice,not just know Him. > He gave us all an offer, free. > We accept or reject. > How is that unfair? The thing is, you first have to have heard of him, which many people have not. Then you have to somehow wrap your mind around the thought that he is _real_. And then, only then can you accept him or tell him to take a hike. Millions, well more, have never heard of him. Many were raised in a culture or in such a way that they never realize that he is real. How is that fair? This is not free will. This is who “get’s lucky?” This is exactly why I am having a problem. Why I _will not_ be a Christian anymore. I feel like it is the same as saying I belong to the KKK or Aryan Nation. It’s contrary to what _I_ feel from him. I don’t see any of this as “God’s Plan”. It sounds more like something man would do. Again, I respect your right to feel as you do. I just don’t understand your calm acceptance that a loving God would do this? ---
**Author:** ![Siege](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@Siege](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siege)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2003, 11:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-dopers-would-a-pagan-heaven-be-a-hell-to-you/217824/76 "2003-12-12T11:20:47Z")
The thing is, **vanilla** , old friend, I know people who have been driven away from Christianity _by the actions of Christians_. This isn’t an abstract problem to me; it’s real. I also know how close I came to rejecting Christianity because people who were proud of their Christianity rejected me. Because of who I am, what I have experienced, and what I have become, I cannot worship a God who would cast non-Christians into the fiery tortures described by some Christians while granting the very people who drove them from Christianity eternal bliss. If I am condemned because of this, and I might be, because while such Christians and I might both use the name “Christ” to describe whom we worship, yet worship quite different entities, then I accept my condemnation, and of that I will not repent. Respectfully, CJ ---
**Author:** ![jatfield](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/59ef9b/32.png) [@jatfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jatfield)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2003, 12:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-dopers-would-a-pagan-heaven-be-a-hell-to-you/217824/77 "2003-12-12T12:26:23Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by IWLN \* > \*\*And I think that’s the answer to why we are here. We live a life with pain and happiness, good and evil, before we go on. If I never feel pain again, I will always be grateful as I experience joy that pain is no longer a part of my life. The contrast to eternal bliss(which I think is a little extreme) will be the remembered experiences from here. \*\* Isn’t eternity too long not to forget pain? I know that bad memories fade, if they don’t disappear, and I’ve only lived for 23 years. What happens if (when?) you do forget it? Do “lesser joys” become pain in a world filled with joy? ---
**Author:** ![lynn73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ebca7d/32.png) [@lynn73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lynn73)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2003, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-dopers-would-a-pagan-heaven-be-a-hell-to-you/217824/78 "2003-12-12T13:11:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*\*Mercy triumphs over judgment. > I forget THAT verse, too.lynn? \*\* Not sure which one your talking about there vanilla, sorry. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2003, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-dopers-would-a-pagan-heaven-be-a-hell-to-you/217824/79 "2003-12-12T13:43:08Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Guinastasia \* > **(You can take the girl out of the Catholic church, but you can’t take the Catholic church out of the girl, I suppose!)** ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2003, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-dopers-would-a-pagan-heaven-be-a-hell-to-you/217824/80 "2003-12-12T13:45:23Z")
I always wondered how people managed to do that and now I know. :smack: Anyway, what I meant to do: > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Guinastasia \* > **(You can take the girl out of the Catholic church, but you can’t take the Catholic church out of the girl, I suppose!)** _former Catholic refraining from making jokes about taking the Church out of the boys_ [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-dopers-would-a-pagan-heaven-be-a-hell-to-you/217824.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-dopers-would-a-pagan-heaven-be-a-hell-to-you/217824.md?page=5)