# Christian dopers...would a Pagan "heaven" be a Hell to you? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 9, 2003, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-dopers-would-a-pagan-heaven-be-a-hell-to-you/217824 "2003-12-09T01:52:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Mhernan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d2c977/32.png) [@Mhernan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mhernan)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2003, 6:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-dopers-would-a-pagan-heaven-be-a-hell-to-you/217824/121 "2003-12-14T06:17:21Z")
[QUOTE] \*Originally posted by Guinastasia \* \*\* > [@](#): > > And yeah, I was raised Catholic, but I am lapsed and am no longer practicing. \*\* In my serious days of deep meditaive prayer I had an experience of a warm and lenlightened contact with God. When I asked her, "How did you make the universe, anyway? We were sitting around and discussing it and all,so hey ", and before I could contimue God answered rather sternly, I thought,“Who is this?” “Its me, Mike” , I said. I then heard this muffled : “Trace this prayerl” Well, feeling a deep sense of aprehension I did, then as they used to say in the street, during the olden days, split. I hung out in Wickenburg , Arizona for a few years-- the last place God would ever look for me. Do you think I did the right and proper thing and was I moral, or were my actions spirituallu expedient? And , finally, have I missed anything important that you think I should know about? :o ---
**Author:** ![Mhernan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d2c977/32.png) [@Mhernan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mhernan)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2003, 6:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-dopers-would-a-pagan-heaven-be-a-hell-to-you/217824/122 "2003-12-14T06:19:28Z")
[QUOTE] \*Originally posted by Guinastasia \* \*\* > [@](#): > > And yeah, I was raised Catholic, but I am lapsed and am no longer practicing. \*\* In my serious days of deep meditaive prayer I had an experience of a warm and lenlightened contact with God. When I asked her, "How did you make the universe, anyway? We were sitting around and discussing it and all,so hey ", and before I could contimue God answered rather sternly, I thought,“Who is this?” “Its me, Mike” , I said. I then heard this muffled : “Trace this prayerl” Well, feeling a deep sense of aprehension I did, then as they used to say in the street, during the olden days, split. I hung out in Wickenburg , Arizona for a few years-- the last place God would ever look for me. Do you think I did the right and proper thing and was I moral, or were my actions spirituallu expedient? And , finally, have I missed anything important that you think I should know about? :o ---
**Author:** ![NaSultainne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/8797f3/32.png) [@NaSultainne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NaSultainne)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2003, 7:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-dopers-would-a-pagan-heaven-be-a-hell-to-you/217824/123 "2003-12-14T07:00:13Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by IWLN \* > > I’d like to know why this is one of the scriptures that describes homosexuality as a “wicked thing”, that is actually used to make a point _against_ homosexuality, by Christians. The sin of Sodom is mentioned first in Gen 13:13. This is the point at which Lot and Abraham have parted ways, Lot having first choice and choosing the plains surrounding Sodom. Some time later Lot has moved into Sodom (Gen 14:12) and eventually is a city leader just prior to the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah (Gen 19:1). Lot, a righteous man, tormented by “filthy lives of lawless men” (2Pet 2:7) nontheless lives amongst them. God, under Abraham’s urging, has agreed to spare the town should 10 righteous people be found, yet only six at most are identified, and that’s if you count Lot, his wife, two daughters and sons-in-law. > [@](#): > > But somehow Lot is saved by God as a good man, _after_ he offered his daughters to the men to be raped in exchange for his visitors? It’s a great message of the dangers of accommodating sin, isn’t it? And remember, Lot was described as righteous, not perfect. > [@](#): > > Are you **sure** we’re supposed to take this literally and are you **sure** there are no contradictory facts or teachings. Really, now. When you read any book, don’t you distinguish between metaphorical expression, phenomenoligical language, parable, narrative, and so on? You do, don’t you, by looking for internal clues to suggest something other than a literal narrative. > [@](#): > > I have tons more that have to do with what you should do if a fellow Christian is stumbling that directly seem to contradict each other, but for now; just explain why God used to condemn gays and not pimps or cowards? Sheesh, He didn’t explicitly condemn cardsharks or ponzi schemes, either. > [@](#): > > Or just explain to me why somehow we’re not supposed to take this part literally and the next part we are? The rules of language interpretation. > [@](#): > > Was right and wrong by God’s laws different then? Who said they changed? I didn’t. > [@](#): > > These are questions that come up all the time from people who are supposed to benefit by “The Great Commission”. I honestly hope there are good explanations for all of the glaring inconsistencies, but I was never taught to answer these questions, only to “have faith”. Then you were gypped. Reading the Bible is the easy part. Digging into the life, times, cultures discussed, all this takes time and study. Haven’t you ever wondered why scholars in this field have devoted lifetimes to study of the Bible, and at that, thousands of years after countless other scholars have already done the same. There’s a lot there, and a superficial understanding is of limited value. > [@](#): > > I do have faith in God, but not in the Bible’s literality or truth. Cool. So, tell me, who is this God you describe? And where do you get your information? > [@](#): > > I am truly not being sarcastic, but will admit to feeling frustrated by your inability to recognize that on the whole, here at SDMB, you are addressing a very intelligent audience in a way that actually insults any form of critical thought. Oh my! Dear, I’ve been around this board for nigh on five years, lurking much, much more than I’ve ever posted. I am quite familiar with many of the esteemed posters, for good or ill. As for critical thought, far too many people seem to take _that_ term in its most common usage, and deny the scholars who, as noted above, dedicate careers to study of the Bible in one area or another, and thus, have far more _gravitas_ behind them. An intelligent person can have spiritual blinders on that short-circuit the rational mind. ---
**Author:** ![Mhernan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d2c977/32.png) [@Mhernan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mhernan)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2003, 7:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-dopers-would-a-pagan-heaven-be-a-hell-to-you/217824/124 "2003-12-14T07:21:25Z")
[QUOTE] \*Originally posted by NaSultainne \* \*\*The sin of Sodom is mentioned first in Gen 13:13. This is the point at which Lot and Abraham have parted ways, Lot having first choice and choosing the plains surrounding Sodom. Some time later Lot has moved into Sodom (Gen 14:12) and eventually is a city leader just prior to the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah (Gen 19:1). The simple question I have is;: Who was the entity that planned and executed the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, which if I remember are cities where humans lived, men women and children. Is there some kind of process that some people performed that jsutified this destruction? Was there authorization from the political powers that were functioning at the time? Was there an apeal process? Wee the people notified of the impending doom, or were they effectively nuked by some tyerrible force? I have it on some authorirty that Lot’s wife met her end in a manner that leads me to opine th epossibility that she was observing the delivery of a nuclear device on those, now long vaporized men, women and children. ---
**Author:** ![NaSultainne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/8797f3/32.png) [@NaSultainne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NaSultainne)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2003, 7:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-dopers-would-a-pagan-heaven-be-a-hell-to-you/217824/125 "2003-12-14T07:38:07Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by IWLN \* > In a setting like this if you’re going to bring up Heaven, hell shouldn’t come first. Granted, and I didn’t. Thanks. > [@](#): > > Your relationship with God is different than mine. We see him differently. The only thing for certain is that neither one of us is completely right. I can admit that, can you? Yes, and what’s more, as God is far above me, I will only ever be able to appreciate some small part of His glory. Still, I crave to acquire every bit I can. > [@](#): > > I don’t see it as angst, I see it as intelligent analysis. Sorry again, **Guin** , don’t need to hang angst around your neck like an albatross! I’ll still disagree on your point; referring to God as a “sadistic bastard” who finds enjoyment tormenting people is not intelligent analysis, it’s very nearly argument by outrage. > [@](#): > > Yes. We have a different opinion on how to achieve this.Romans 11:6 explains that it is part of God’s plan that they not know until later. At least that is how it was explained to me. You’ve lost me. Paul is discussing the Jews and their stumbling by rejecting the promised Messiah. Please clarify. > [@](#): > > Of course it’s too complex. I shouldn’t have said science doesn’t lie, because I’m sure facts have been falsified at different times. But the facts of evolution have been studied and researched by an impressive amount of scientists. Were they all conspiring to disprove God or did they all make the same errors? Evolution doesn’t mean God doesn’t exist or that he wasn’t the creator. The Catholic Church accepts evolution and they’re one of the slowest changing churches around. Did they conspire with the scientists? I don’t belong to the Catholic Church, so won’t attempt to defend their teachings or doctrine. Suffice it to say that the claims made for evolutionary progress are still being questioned. > [@](#): > > **Guin** voiced concern over inconsistencies in what she feels from God and Christian teaching(sorry Guin, you can correct what I say wrong). Taking issue with some aspect of the Christian faith doesn’t indicate a lack of faith in God. Quite right. That’s not the point. The point is, there _are_ difficult sections of the Bible. The question is, does one reject the teaching based on emotional response, or does one seek further edification? I recommend the latter. > [@](#): > > You called her on how she could think her standards were better than Gods. Do you even remotely get that the Christian religion _isn’t_ God and that it is okay for us to think something doesn’t sound right or is inconsistent. To say so is not wrong. Of course I called her on it. And it’s always right and smart to question what you don’t understand. How in sam hell would anyone ever learn anything if no one ever asked questions? The problem wasn’t asking, the problem was taking another’s stated position and rejecting it based on emotion, gut, feelings. Telling me that you don’t agree with God because He says something mean does not, repeat _not_ impress me. > [@](#): > > If someone quotes the Bible as saying “few are going to heaven” and I really care about people, there is an emotional response. It contradicts what I **feel** from God and it is an appalling thought for everyone, or should be. I pretty much **think** back then or now, smiting is smiting, etc. _bolding mine_ There ya go. You _feel_ and you _think_. Based on emotional responses to unsettling scripture. Are you satisfied to go on feeling this way or are you going to look further? > [@](#): > > There are too many vague answers to these things. Not really. Some answers require careful consideration. God isn’t simple. Aren’t people always asking why God didn’t just write the Ten Commandments and leave it at that? > [@](#): > > You were speaking on a board with 42,197 members. If your message was only suitable for a few, then email would be more appropriate. The whole issue came up because of a Bible quote about not many making it to heaven. How does that not conflict with a loving God? These people aren’t very responsive to fear. Kindly don’t dictate posting etiquette. I directly and specifically addressed another poster. That’s how this board works. Poster A says something, Poster B responds, and so on. Okay, so you’re really hung up on verses indicating that not many make it to heaven. Okay. So, who should go to heaven, in your opinion? Everyone? Or would you begin excluding people, say, murderers, rapists and the like? And then, what about the rich people who never helped the poor? How ‘bout those who stole the life savings of little ol’ ladies? How 'bout the selfish, the greedy, the liars, the wife abusers, the child beaters… At what point do you call a halt to the exclusions? I’m serious. What about die-hard atheists who want nothing to do with God? Should He let them in, too? You _do_ see where I’m going, don’t you? Do people who couldn’t be bothered to follow God’s rules _here_ belong in heaven? Would anyone call that heaven? > [@](#): > > Do you believe **everything** your church teaches? I thoroughly researched this church before attending it. I had e-mail correspondence with the pastor to satisfy my questions. I have yet to run into areas of significant disagreement. Shall I let you know if I do? ---
**Author:** ![Mhernan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d2c977/32.png) [@Mhernan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mhernan)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2003, 8:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-dopers-would-a-pagan-heaven-be-a-hell-to-you/217824/126 "2003-12-14T08:25:39Z")
So mr Nosultanine, do you know who nuked sodom and gomorah? Who was it that dropped that nuclear device on their city that Mrs. Lot just had to turn and peek at? Oh, heck, sorry to bother you, I think I found it here, yes: Genesis 19:24 “Then Jehovah made it rain sulphur and fire from the heavens upon Sodom and Gomorrah.” Look at Mr. DEmbarrassed here. I thought it was a nuke, of course, the old sulphur and fire bomb. Werll if I could just find my cane ’ … but I can’t get up. Hey, Nosult, You seem to be aquainted with some very powerful people who might just know who is responsble for the death and destruction. I think you shoul;d tell that God fellow about Mr. Jehovah. Drop a dime on 'em, as they say in the streets. ---
**Author:** ![Ranchoth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ranchoth/32/1066_2.png) [@Ranchoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ranchoth)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2003, 9:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-dopers-would-a-pagan-heaven-be-a-hell-to-you/217824/127 "2003-12-14T09:04:14Z")
Now, I’m no Bible expert, but didn’t someone-or-another actually talk God _out_ of destroying Sodom & Gomorrah outright? That he got God to _change his mind?_ It went something like: God: Sodom’s full of sin. I’m going to toast the joint. Someone: What, you’re going to kill _everyone_? What if there are 50 innocent people in there? God: Well, yeah…I guess I wouldn’t destroy it, then. Someone: What about _45_ people? God:…No. Someone: 30? 30 people? God: No. Someone: 25, then? 15? What if it was only 10 people? God: All _right_, fine…if you can find _10 innocent people_ in Sodom, it won’t be destroyed. Ah, [this site](http://web.singnet.com.sg/~oulds/genesis_18.htm) says it was an arguement between God and Abraham. So…God’s opinion can be swayed, by a mere human? Ranchoth And it also seems that God favors the “base ten” counting system. ---
**Author:** ![IWLN](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b5ac83/32.png) [@IWLN](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IWLN)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2003, 9:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-dopers-would-a-pagan-heaven-be-a-hell-to-you/217824/128 "2003-12-14T09:18:54Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Ranchoth \* > So…God’s opinion can be swayed, by a mere human? One would hope, or prayer is kind of an exercise in futility. > [@](#): > > And it also seems that God favors the “base ten” counting system. Here’s hoping he counts at least to 10 hundred million trillion(or whatever it takes).😃 ---
**Author:** ![IWLN](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b5ac83/32.png) [@IWLN](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IWLN)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2003, 9:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-dopers-would-a-pagan-heaven-be-a-hell-to-you/217824/129 "2003-12-14T09:27:48Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by NaSultainne \* > The sin of Sodom is mentioned first in Gen 13:13. This is the point at which Lot and Abraham have parted ways, Lot having first choice and choosing the plains surrounding Sodom. Some time later Lot has moved into Sodom (Gen 14:12) and eventually is a city leader just prior to the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah (Gen 19:1). Lot, a righteous man, tormented by “filthy lives of lawless men” (2Pet 2:7) nontheless lives amongst them. God, under Abraham’s urging, has agreed to spare the town should 10 righteous people be found, yet only six at most are identified, and that’s if you count Lot, his wife, two daughters and sons-in-law. I know the history of it, but thank you. You’re very good at this. > [@](#): > > It’s a great message of the dangers of accommodating sin, isn’t it? And remember, Lot was described as righteous, not perfect. That’s it! That’s the type of response these questions usually receive. Sounds like a good answer, but really isn’t saying anything. Could you clarify? It appears that Lot wasn’t any better than the people God killed. A mob tries to grab and rape a couple of “angels” or a father tries to give the mob his children to rape. > [@](#): > > Really, now. When you read any book, don’t you distinguish between metaphorical expression, phenomenoligical language, parable, narrative, and so on? You do, don’t you, by looking for internal clues to suggest something other than a literal narrative. Yes, I do. I was wondering if you did? When you apply that sound method on the above scriptures does it only give you a vague “moral of the story”? How did religion make the leap from violient promiscuous men being wicked, to gay men being wicked, from this scripture? > [@](#): > > Sheesh, He didn’t explicitly condemn cardsharks or ponzi schemes, either. No but he did bring up lying diviners, dreamers, sorcerers, etc. I’m thinking the cardsharks fall under either liars or cheaters. > [@](#): > > Who said they changed? I didn’t. So handing your children over to a pack of wolves, no matter when you did it is still a sin? > [@](#): > > The rules of language interpretation. Did that section of the Bible come right after Revelation. Or are you depending on men, who miraculously had no ego, no pride, no religious affiliation and maybe were gifted with a little clairvoyance.😉 > [@](#): > > Then you were gypped. Reading the Bible is the easy part. Digging into the life, times, cultures discussed, all this takes time and study. Haven’t you ever wondered why scholars in this field have devoted lifetimes to study of the Bible, and at that, thousands of years after countless other scholars have already done the same. There’s a lot there, and a superficial understanding is of limited value. I think the scholars do their best, but would say same answer as the rules of language interpretation applies here. You are putting a lot into other people’s hands and trusting them with your lives. I think you’re only supposed to do that with God. > [@](#): > > Cool. So, tell me, who is this God you describe? And where do you get your information? Oh, I’m sorry. I thought you told me you knew him. Well to start with, there’s only one, that I know of. Although, sometimes it seems like we’re talking about two different deities. I got my information from God. I feel his presence, he answers my questions and he dropped in for a visit one day. I realize I’m being irreverent, but I did see him and I do feel him and he does answer prayer. Now describe yours. > [@](#): > > Oh my! Dear, I’ve been around this board for nigh on five years, lurking much, much more than I’ve ever posted. I am quite familiar with many of the esteemed posters, for good or ill. As for critical thought, far too many people seem to take _that_ term in its most common usage, and deny the scholars who, as noted above, dedicate careers to study of the Bible in one area or another, and thus, have far more _gravitas_ behind them. An intelligent person can have spiritual blinders on that short-circuit the rational mind. Great group of posters here. I hope you didn’t let that “not believing in God” thing keep you from getting to know them. Again, as for the scholars, I don’t deny their contribution, but you can’t study religion and know God from it. And there are a lot of “righteous” people here who don’t know God. They seem more moral than Lot. Are you sure God doesn’t have a plan for them, that doesn’t involve eternal torture? I’m just not getting that kind of feeling from God. You do realize he has a sense of humor, don’t you? ---
**Author:** ![IWLN](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b5ac83/32.png) [@IWLN](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IWLN)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2003, 11:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-dopers-would-a-pagan-heaven-be-a-hell-to-you/217824/130 "2003-12-14T11:15:08Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by NaSultainne \* > Granted, and I didn’t. Thanks. You’re absolutely correct, I apologize, but that is what brought the comment from **Guin** or at least I believe it was the source of the sadistic comment. > [@](#): > > Yes, and what’s more, as God is far above me, I will only ever be able to appreciate some small part of His glory. Still, I crave to acquire every bit I can. So do I and that’s why I ask him instead of counting on a book. > [@](#): > > Sorry again, **Guin** , don’t need to hang angst around your neck like an albatross! > I’ll still disagree on your point; referring to God as a “sadistic bastard” who finds enjoyment tormenting people is not intelligent analysis, it’s very nearly argument by outrage. I’ll admit there was a lot of frustration in the comment. It’s not a good thing to say, but the sentiment is shared by many. I know it’s not like it seems. He _is_ fiercely loving and compassionate. > [@](#): > > You’ve lost me. Paul is discussing the Jews and their stumbling by rejecting the promised Messiah. Please clarify. Oops sorry. Romans 11. You probably need to read the whole chapter. The way this was explained to me is God wasn’t real happy with the Jews and he basically blocked them from knowing him and the truth about Jesus until the time was right, which hasn’t come yet. There’s also another accounting of it in the OT, I believe. > [@](#): > > I don’t belong to the Catholic Church, so won’t attempt to defend their teachings or doctrine. Suffice it to say that the claims made for evolutionary progress are still being questioned. Only by some religions. There are many details that they’re still working on, but the fact of evolution isn’t in doubt. There are other scriptures that were taken out of the Bible that say that all life and everything with a spirit came out of the ocean. The Catholic Church removed it, probably didn’t fit with Adam and Eve in their opinion. > [@](#): > > Quite right. That’s not the point. The point is, there _are_ difficult sections of the Bible. The question is, does one reject the teaching based on emotional response, or does one seek further edification? I recommend the latter. Of course you learn all you can, but always ask for God’s help if you don’t understand. I didn’t think she rejected anything but some other people’s interpretations, because they seemed contrary to a loving God. > [@](#): > > Of course I called her on it. And it’s always right and smart to question what you don’t understand. How in sam hell would anyone ever learn anything if no one ever asked questions? The problem wasn’t asking, the problem was taking another’s stated position and rejecting it based on emotion, gut, feelings. Telling me that you don’t agree with God because He says something mean does not, repeat _not_ impress me. You know, if it were God actually saying it, we would have to deal with it. The hard part is determining the word of God from the words of men. > [@](#): > > _bolding mine_ Actually it’s italics, but I’ll _let_ let you slide on that one.😉 > [@](#): > > There ya go. You _feel_ and you _think_. Based on emotional responses to unsettling scripture. Are you satisfied to go on feeling this way or are you going to look further? I ask God for help with it. > [@](#): > > Not really. Some answers require careful consideration. God isn’t simple. Aren’t people always asking why God didn’t just write the Ten Commandments and leave it at that? Well you can always use “it’s a mystery”. > [@](#): > > Kindly don’t dictate posting etiquette. I directly and specifically addressed another poster. That’s how this board works. Poster A says something, Poster B responds, and so on. I’m not dictating anything. You stated you weren’t speaking to a non-believer and I just pointed out that there were quite a few listening. It is okay to rebuke a fellow believer, but you’re not doing it like the Bible says. But neither am I right now, which I feel a little sad about and I do apologize if I’ve said anything to offend you. > [@](#): > > Matthew 18 > A Brother Who Sins Against You > > 15"If your brother sins against you,[1] go and show him his fault, just between the two of you. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over. 16But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.’[2] > [@](#): > > Okay, so you’re really hung up on verses indicating that not many make it to heaven. Okay. So, who should go to heaven, in your opinion? Everyone? Or would you begin excluding people, say, murderers, rapists and the like? And then, what about the rich people who never helped the poor? How ‘bout those who stole the life savings of little ol’ ladies? How 'bout the selfish, the greedy, the liars, the wife abusers, the child beaters… At what point do you call a halt to the exclusions? I’m serious. What about die-hard atheists who want nothing to do with God? Should He let them in, too? You _do_ see where I’m going, don’t you? Do people who couldn’t be bothered to follow God’s rules _here_ belong in heaven? Would anyone call that heaven? Since you’re asking me what I think I’ll tell you, even though I’m not sure if it’s true. **EVERYONE** would be my choice. None of us really totally deserve it anyway. Obviously they have to repent, but I’m hoping there’s still a chance of that even after death.(remember this is my heaven wish list) I can forgive all of the above people, so it should be even easier for God to. He’s alot more generous than I am. I don’t resent the fact that I gave to the poor and they didn’t or feel I am somehow more entitled. I will always feel lucky I was given the life I was and know that it was only a chance of birth in the right family, the right country that gave me that gift. I’m sure we’ll both agree that Jesus died for our sins. If you believe the message that came with that was to show a pure example of love, compassion, forgiveness and sacrifice and that we are supposed to follow that; how could you **not** want everyone to go to heaven? He didn’t die so only Christians could go to heaven or just people who truly knew him. We were supposed to understand who God was from that act. Not use it to exclude most of the world’s people and religions. Not to exclude die-hard atheists who _are_ righteous people, but have never felt God’s hand. God’s supreme act of love and sacrifice does make all sins forgiveable. So there is no reason to not include everyone. Your question, “Would anyone call that Heaven?” makes me wonder, could anyone call it Heaven if you knew there were people suffering for eternity. I don’t feel like I deserve Heaven more than anyone else. Everything I’ve done in this life was because I care about people, not because I was aiming at some promised reward. I would have done it even if I didn’t believe. Scriptures say that God loves us all, so being as omnipotent as he is, do you figure he might have a back up plan? He’s pretty wise, you know. > [@](#): > > I thoroughly researched this church before attending it. I had e-mail correspondence with the pastor to satisfy my questions. I have yet to run into areas of significant disagreement. Shall I let you know if I do? Yes, by email please. 🆒 ---
**Author:** ![Siege](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@Siege](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siege)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2003, 12:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-dopers-would-a-pagan-heaven-be-a-hell-to-you/217824/131 "2003-12-14T12:06:26Z")
One thing I think we all need to keep in mind is that different people are called to different ministries and have had different experiences with God. My life has brought me in contact with people who suffer from clincal depression, and I’ve battled that disease for most of my life. The people I come in contact with are often convinced of their own sinfulness, some to the point where they have quite literally believed they don’t deserve to live. To use a less extreme example, I’ve also come in contact with people who, to vastly over-simplify, believe they are too sinful or too wierd to be Christians, therefore, if you ask them, they would say Christianity rejected them. Part of who I am and part of what God has taught me is how to reach out to them. 11 years ago, when I was flat on my back, close to catatonic from depression in a hospital in Hawaii, I didn’t need to be told I was a sinner; I knew that all too well and was doing my level best to die. God showed me mercy, even though I was too far gone to ask for it, broke that catatonia and gave me life. I’ve been an outcast, unwelcome pretty much anywhere, and told how awful I was for not doing what everyone else said was right. What that was was ending a friendship with an abnormal, handicapped friend. **NaSultainne** (she’s female, by the way, as am I), may well be in contact with, oh, I don’t know, people like the cad being Pitted right now, people who seem to think they can do no wrong and that morality and doing what’s right doesn’t matter. In that case, her ministry might be appropriate. I’ve certainly been frustrated enough by people who continue to do sinful things simply because they can. I have a pet peeve about adultery; I can certainly see myself saying to someone “How can you call yourself a Christian when you’re having an affair?!” and, if lesser methods didn’t work, ending a friendship because of it. I also know that 150 years ago, arguments for slavery were being made just as strongly, just as stridently, and with just as much Biblical basis as arguments against homosexuality. After all, in 3 places, Paul gives instructions on how masters and slaves are to behave (Ephesians 6, Collosians 3 and 4, and Titus 2). I was taught that for me to desire affection, let alone sex was awful and disgusting, not because I was gay (I’m straight), but because I was unpopular and “fucking ugly”. I know how it feels first hand, and it’s one reason I’ve never married and am still vaguely surprised when someone’s interested in me. One of the people who was kind to me and who remains one of the most decent, honorable people I know is a gay man in a 10 year relationship with a fellow who might just measure up to him. I’ve read the verses in Leviticus, the Gospels and Paul; I also know that 3 verses before Leviticus bans homosexuality, it also bans men approaching their wives for sex while their wives are menstruating, not that that gets much publicity. Besides, I figure there are some husbands who genuinely may not know – are they, too, abominations? Paul and Christ also condemn gossip, malice, slander, and greed alongside homosexuality, yet those don’t get nearly as much condemnation from some Christians. I cannot believe that the friend I mentioned is somehow worse because he is homosexual than the people whose gossip, malice, and slander were directly responsible for that handicapped friend of mine having a nervous breakdown when she was 16. I know there mey be people in this thread whom that belief will offend, but I stand by it. We’ve drifted far away from the OP, and for that I also apologize. Ultimately, I have one yardstick by which I measure my faith and my actions, and I believe it is the one Christ has commanded me too. It is why I do accept evolution and why I act as I do. I’ve used the King James Version a few times here, and I’ll use it once again because the language is clear to me and beautiful: **Matthew 22:34-40** > [@](#): > > 34 But when the Pharisees had heard that he had put the Sadducees to silence, they were gathered together. > 35 Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying, > 36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law? > 37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. > 38 This is the first and great commandment. > 39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. > 40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets. If my actions do not pass those two tests, no matter how many Levitical instructions they don’t break, no matter how they fare compared to Paul’s instructions, I have sinned. In a few hours, with my congregation I will pray, > [@](#): > > Most merciful God, > we confess that we have sinned against you > in thought, word, and deed, > by what we have done, > and by what we have left undone. > We have not loved you with our whole hear; > we have not loved our neighbors as ourselves. > We are truly sorry and we humbly repent. (prayer continues) I have not loved my nieghbors as myself or as God commanded me to (I haven’t always loved myself much), and I have much to repent of this week. **Na Sultainne** , I also want to pass on to you another prayer the Episcopal Church uses, this one before Communion, most commonly during Lent. It’s one I find particularly powerful, and not just because it reminds me of my place: > [@](#): > > We do not presume to come to this thy Table, O merciful Lord, trusting in our own righteousness, but in thy manifold and great mercies. We are not worthy so much as to gather up the crumbs under thy Table. But thou art the same Lord whose property is always to have mercy. Grant us therefore, gracious Lord, so to eat the flesh of thy dear Son Jesus Christ, and to drink his blood, that we may evermore dwell in him, and he in us. Amen. These are prayers I grew up with, ones which shaped my life and my faith. I serve God as best I know how, but I have no claim to righteousness, only to servanthood, and that only by God’s grace. I have been accused of leading people to hell. I do not believe I am doing that, for, if I did, I would stop. I only know that I have been given this path and others have been given other paths. They may appear to lead in radically different directions, but, because the God I worship is so far beyond limits as to render them ridiculous, the possibility exists that we may all be right. The Commandment Christ gave us, gave me in Matthew 22:39 demands that I treat such people respect even when I disagree with them. When I fail to do so, as I have, out of anger and hurt, I have sinned, and I am required to repent. Respectfully (obviously? ;)) CJ ---
**Author:** ![Ranchoth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ranchoth/32/1066_2.png) [@Ranchoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ranchoth)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2003, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-dopers-would-a-pagan-heaven-be-a-hell-to-you/217824/132 "2003-12-14T13:03:16Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by IWLN \* > \*\*One would hope, or prayer is kind of an exercise in futility. > \*\* Tell me about it. What was it that Ambrose Pierce said? “Pray, n:. To ask that the laws of the universe be annulled in behalf of a single petitioner, confessedly unworthy.” ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2003, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-dopers-would-a-pagan-heaven-be-a-hell-to-you/217824/133 "2003-12-14T15:48:07Z")
> [@](#): > > There are other scriptures that were taken out of the Bible that say that all life and everything with a spirit came out of the ocean. The Catholic Church removed it, probably didn’t fit with Adam and Eve in their opinion. Do you have an actual passage in mind or any evidence for this claim? (Have the Jews left that passage in the Tanakh? How about the Protestants? Have the Orthodox included or excluded the passage?) ---
**Author:** ![IWLN](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b5ac83/32.png) [@IWLN](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IWLN)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2003, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-dopers-would-a-pagan-heaven-be-a-hell-to-you/217824/134 "2003-12-14T16:29:20Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by tomndebb \* > \*\*Do you have an actual passage in mind or any evidence for this claim? (Have the Jews left that passage in the Tanakh? How about the Protestants? Have the Orthodox included or excluded the passage?) \*\* The first [cite](http://reluctant-messenger.com/enoch.htm) shows the story behind all the books that were removed by the Council of Laodicea. The [second](http://reluctant-messenger.com/2enoch01-68.htm) cite shows the actual scripture. The verse I was referring to: > [@](#): > > Chapter 30:8[Thursday]. On the fifth day I commanded the sea, that it should bring forth fishes, and feathered birds of many varieties, and all animals creeping over the earth, going forth over the earth on four legs, and soaring in the air, male sex and female, and every soul breathing the spirit of life. I don’t know much about the history of it other than it is documented by the Catholic church as being banned. The creation story is kind of bizarre and very specific. There are all kinds of measurments for the mechanics of our solar system. Not that I have a clue if they’re valid or not. I just find it fascinating writing regardless of what the church “deemed appropriate”. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2003, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-dopers-would-a-pagan-heaven-be-a-hell-to-you/217824/135 "2003-12-14T18:33:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by NaSultainne \* > \*\* Telling me that you don’t agree with God because He says something mean does not, repeat _not_ impress me. > _bolding mine_ > > \*\* I NEVER said I don’t agree with God. I don’t agree with the BIBLE. And yes, there is a difference. The Bible is not God. I said that the God PORTRAYED BY SOME is a sadistic bastard. But I don’t believe that God is like that. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2003, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-dopers-would-a-pagan-heaven-be-a-hell-to-you/217824/136 "2003-12-14T19:17:16Z")
> [@](#): > > I don’t know much about the history of it other than it is documented by the Catholic church as being banned. Well, it was hardly banned by the _Catholic_ church if you cannot find it in the works accepted by the Jews, Orthodox, and Protestants. For that matter, it was never _banned_ at all–it was simply noted that it did not hve the full authority of Scripture and tended to fall out of publication. In fact, Enoch (in its several variants) has never been considered _Scripture_ by any of the principal religious groups, Jewish or Christian, any more than the _Assumption of Moses_ or the _Life of Adam and Eve_ or the _Apocalypse of Adam_ or any number of other works were accepted as Scripture. Similarly, among New Testament works, there were people who revered the _Shepherd of Hermas_, the _Didache_, the _Letter of Barnabas_ and even the first _Letter of Clement_, but they received no broad support to be accepted as Scripture. At no time has any religious group declared that every work about God was Scripture, even works that contained thoughts that were deemed useful. (And given that Enoch was never considered Scripture\*, it is a bit of a stretch to claim that it was removed for a single line–and your initial claim appeared to say that only that line had been removed.) The Council of Laodicea simply noted the accepted traditions of the period. \*(Among the Church Fathers, I can only find a “scripture” reference from Tertullian–who got mad and quit the church after only ten years, himself.) ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2003, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-dopers-would-a-pagan-heaven-be-a-hell-to-you/217824/137 "2003-12-14T19:24:09Z")
> [@](#): > > and your initial claim appeared to say that only that line had been removed Sorry. That was a a misreading of your comment that you did not actually make. ---
**Author:** ![IWLN](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b5ac83/32.png) [@IWLN](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IWLN)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2003, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-dopers-would-a-pagan-heaven-be-a-hell-to-you/217824/138 "2003-12-14T20:23:51Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by tomndebb \* > \*\*Sorry. That was a a misreading of your comment that you did not actually make. \*\* You know I never laid claim to this book being sacred or anything; just interesting, but you seem to be debating me over it. Put in Secrets of Enoch Banned under your Google search and you will find many, many different groups saying it was banned. They actually destoyed copies of it. The Catholic church was the Orthodox church until the split 1054a.d. I think. The Protestant church was founded in the 1500’s. When the book was estimated to be written, late 1st century I think, the Romans were chasing the Jews all over the place. They may have missed it in their struggle for survival, but the book actually was thought to be written by a Jew or Jews. So none of the groups you mentioned either existed or were openly organized at the time the book was written. The [Jewishencyclopedia.com](http://Jewishencyclopedia.com) talks about it. I could go on, but it doesn’t matter. I find any and all literature that is that old to be very fascinating and it was a good read. The church doesn’t have to endorse it for it to be worth reading. ---
**Author:** ![Rusalka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ecd19e/32.png) [@Rusalka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rusalka)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2003, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-dopers-would-a-pagan-heaven-be-a-hell-to-you/217824/139 "2003-12-14T20:48:25Z")
To all those who say they don’t want to go “through this” again… your life must be pretty awful and hopeless if you cannot consider life on earth as ever being satisfying. I cannot imagine what that is like. My life isn’t all honey and roses, but if I had another chance to start over, I’d jump at the opportunity. There are a million things to do in this world and never enough time to do them! There’s no guarantee of anything after - we should be thankful for what we have. Part of what makes life enjoyable for human beings is goals and “anticipation” - I see no goals in images of “heaven”. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2003, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-dopers-would-a-pagan-heaven-be-a-hell-to-you/217824/140 "2003-12-14T21:07:15Z")
> [@](#): > > You know I never laid claim to this book being sacred or anything; just interesting, but you seem to be debating me over it. What I challenged was your specific claim that the _Catholic_ church _banned_ it (with the speculation that the “banning” was tied to a defense of Genesis). Your claim that the Orthodox were Catholics until 1054 is liable to incur an entirely wrathful reply from **Dogface** or a milder rebuke from our other Orthodox posters. I pointed out that no group ever considered it Scripture for the purpose of showing that it was not an issue of getting rid of something that had already been accepted. The development of the canon in each of the Jewish and Christian groups is a fascinating study of a really messy human activity (guided or not, by God, as one’s belief suggests), but it is rarely so cut and dried as one group or another resorting to skulduggery to shape their view of Scripture. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-dopers-would-a-pagan-heaven-be-a-hell-to-you/217824.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-dopers-would-a-pagan-heaven-be-a-hell-to-you/217824.md?page=8)